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Muddy Spoken Words In Movies


Niterox

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I am running 2 RB-61s, an RC-62 and an R-112SW with a Yamaha RX-V683.  I used the speaker setup wizard in the Yamaha and then tweaked the base down in the sub because it was just too much.  When we watch movies it is hard to hear spoken words clearly, which is frustrating.  I can fiddle with the setup in the Yamaha, which sometimes makes the situation better.  It is especially frustrating for my wife, who is a little hard of hearing.  She'd rather listen to the built-in speakers on the Samsung flat screen TV, which is much clearer voice, but of course nowhere near the richness of music.

 

Can anyone please give me some suggestions on improving this?

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Just now, Niterox said:

I am running 2 RB-61s, an RC-62 and an R-112SW with a Yamaha RX-V683.  I used the speaker setup wizard in the Yamaha and then tweaked the base down in the sub because it was just too much.  When we watch movies it is hard to hear spoken words clearly, which is frustrating.  I can fiddle with the setup in the Yamaha, which sometimes makes the situation better.  It is especially frustrating for my wife, who is a little hard of hearing.  She'd rather listen to the built-in speakers on the Samsung flat screen TV, which is much clearer voice, but of course nowhere near the richness of music.

 

Can anyone please give me some suggestions on improving this?

You can always bump the level of the center channel up manually.

 

Personally I use an spl meter and test tones or pink noise from the receiver to set everything up if there's an issue with the auto calibration.

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  • Turn up the center channel

This never used to be true with the movies of the '50s, '60s and '70s  -- you could hear and understand every word, and you still can with DVD and Blu-ray versions of those particular movies.  There are two reasons I can think of for keeping dialog low, except for the screaming.  One is for dramatic contrast.  The other is to allow the music and effects to have more dynamic range.  BUT, with magnetic tracks of the '50s, '60s. and '70s, those dynamics were available without swamping the dialogue.  Examples Ben-Hur (1959, magnetic), Around the World in 80 Days (1956, magnetic)with its ultra-dynamic 114 piece orchestra, and  Lawrence of Arabia (1962, magnetic), and even a few optical tracks, like The Searchers.

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Don't blame the speakers blame the recording and mixing engineers.  I have the same issues and I have a hot rodded La Scala center with 200 watts feeding it and six other big Klipsch Heritage speakers.  Not all soundtracks are like this but a good number are.

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Unfortunately I have found it tends to be a mix of all the above  (channel levels, the speakers themselves, how the AVR EQs things, and sometimes the film itself). I found that I always needed to boost the center channel with my Pioneer AVR, but the Integra pre-pro gets it right. I recently switched to all JBL mid horns in my basement system, with a JBL 2386 mid horn for the center. The improvement in the clarity of the dialog was surprisingly large. I would start by boosting the center level, then by switching off any correction by the AVR and go from there. It can be made to work. Good luck

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the room itself is usually the culprit

in your case what stands out is the bass is too loud...rare in an autosetup

 

since you hear the tv well and not the speakers id venture a guess that most or all the speakers are up against walls and need to be moved out.  or perhaps you are running the fronts as Large and using a sub which is not working well....or third the crossover setting is too low potentially. all guesses without knowing more

 

in most untreated rooms bumping the center a few db will help. 

 

some cable stations like tnt and scify are notorious for compressing the dynamic range makingvolume esp for voices awful

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36 minutes ago, tromprof said:

Unfortunately I have found it tends to be a mix of all the above  (channel levels, the speakers themselves, how the AVR EQs things, and sometimes the film itself). I found that I always needed to boost the center channel with my Pioneer AVR, but the Integra pre-pro gets it right.

Probably pretty spot on with this answer.

 

My NAD T175HD pre/pro has a very nice feature in the tone settings called "center dialog" which boosts those frequencies in the human voice range instead of the entire frequency band of the center channel.  It works great.

 

Bill

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On 12/27/2017 at 3:59 PM, Niterox said:

I am running 2 RB-61s, an RC-62 and an R-112SW with a Yamaha RX-V683.  I used the speaker setup wizard in the Yamaha and then tweaked the base down in the sub because it was just too much.  When we watch movies it is hard to hear spoken words clearly, which is frustrating. 

Can anyone please give me some suggestions on improving this?

What frequency have you crossed your speakers at? Do you know if your Yamaha would let you to cross fronts and surrounds and run center uncrossed?

I'm running RF-82ll and RC-62ll as Large, uncrossed and one of the reasons I'm doing it cuz the dialog sounds fuller and more realistic that way. After running MCACC I left fronts and sub as is, center boosted to +1 and surrounds boosted to +1 and +2.

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I blame my 52 year old ears, most of the time. A lot of movies have the dialog low, then over-the-top noise and camera shaking in the action scenes.....  I have hated it for years.

On 12/27/2017 at 4:59 PM, Niterox said:

I am running 2 RB-61s, an RC-62 and an R-112SW with <snip it>

 

 It is especially frustrating for my wife...<snip it again>

 

Can anyone please give me some suggestions on improving this?

You have all you need. A- get your Forte II out and dial them in. Use your ears to tune them to an enjoyable level. They love to be looked at, heard and enjoyed for what they are...they are special. Second, do the same as A to your wife. 

 

 

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rs

10 hours ago, Frzninvt said:

Don't blame the speakers blame the recording and mixing engineers.  I have the same issues and I have a hot rodded La Scala center with 200 watts feeding it and six other big Klipsch Heritage speakers.  Not all soundtracks are like this but a good number are.

 

 I have a "hot rodded" Belle Klipsch center with a rebuilt top hat and a k401 horn (with the K55X driver and some of the horn extending out of the back).   About 1 in 20 soundtracks have muddy dialogue, especially with cockney accents, or other non-mainline British accents.  Trainspotting was nearly impossible to understand.  We have taken to running the Belle 2 dB hot, which helps but doesn't always cure.  Audyssey Flat (which, compared to Audyssey Reference, has 2 dB more SPL at about 2K Hz, and another 2 dB at 10K, and +6 dB at 20K.   Audyssey Flat is better, with clearer dialogue than with Audyssey turned off, in our room. 

 

8 hours ago, tromprof said:

Unfortunately I have found it tends to be a mix of all the above  (channel levels, the speakers themselves, how the AVR EQs things, and sometimes the film itself). I found that I always needed to boost the center channel with my Pioneer AVR, but the Integra pre-pro gets it right. I recently switched to all JBL mid horns in my basement system, with a JBL 2386 mid horn for the center. The improvement in the clarity of the dialog was surprisingly large. I would start by boosting the center level, then by switching off any correction by the AVR and go from there. It can be made to work. Good luck

 

In our case, room correction (Audyssey Flat) helps.  A great deal depends on the room.

 

8 hours ago, RoboKlipsch said:

the room itself is usually the culprit

in your case what stands out is the bass is too loud...rare in an autosetup

 

since you hear the tv well and not the speakers id venture a guess that most or all the speakers are up against walls and need to be moved out.  or perhaps you are running the fronts as Large and using a sub which is not working well....or third the crossover setting is too low potentially. all guesses without knowing more

 

in most untreated rooms bumping the center a few db will help. 

 

some cable stations like tnt and scify are notorious for compressing the dynamic range makingvolume esp for voices awful

 

I still think the soundtracks themselves are the problem.  One out of twenty isn't bad, but it should be 0 out of twenty.  A decent cure might be turning up the midrange, say, from about 1K to 8K.  Unfortunately, there is not a way to do that on most AVRs and pre/pros.   Perhaps that is what willand's [is it Bill?] NAD is doing.  [Almost] always liked NAD!   @Niterox, do you have graphic EQ on your Yamaha for the center channel?  To use it you might have to sacrifice the auto-room EQ, so it would be best to empirically compare the two.  If you have the graphic, you might try turning up those frequencies between 1K and 8K.  One of the very old "presence" controls might do the trick.  They were generally bad for music, but now that we have Home Theater, there might be a place for them.  Paul W. Klipsch disliked them.  He suggested adding "absence" controls.

 

 

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Deep in the settings, my Pioneer Elite AVR is able to play center channel info out of the left and right channels. That way voices comes out of all three in the front stage. Not ideal or preferred for home theater, but it's very helpful with muddily mixed dialogue. Maybe your Yamaha has something similar?

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2 hours ago, garyrc said:

rs

 

 I have a "hot rodded" Belle Klipsch center with a rebuilt top hat and a k401 horn (with the K55X driver and some of the horn extending out of the back).   About 1 in 20 soundtracks have muddy dialogue, especially with cockney accents, or other non-mainline British accents.  Trainspotting was nearly impossible to understand.  We have taken to running the Belle 2 dB hot, which helps but doesn't always cure.  Audyssey Flat (which, compared to Audyssey Reference, has 2 dB more SPL at about 2K Hz, and another 2 dB at 10K, and +6 dB at 20K.   Audyssey Flat is better, with clearer dialogue than with Audyssey turned off, in our room. 

 

In our case, room correction (Audyssey Flat) helps.  A great deal depends on the room.

 

I still think the soundtracks themselves are the problem.  One out of twenty isn't bad, but it should be 0 out of twenty.  A decent cure might be turning up the midrange, say, from about 1K to 8K.  Unfortunately, there is not a way to do that on most AVRs and pre/pros.   Perhaps that is what willand's [is it Bill?] NAD is doing.  [Almost] always liked NAD!   @Niterox, do you have graphic EQ on your Yamaha for the center channel?  To use it you might have to sacrifice the auto-room EQ, so it would be best to empirically compare the two.  If you have the graphic, you might try turning up those frequencies between 1K and 8K.  One of the very old "presence" controls might do the trick.  They were generally bad for music, but now that we have Home Theater, there might be a place for them.  Paul W. Klipsch disliked them.  He suggested adding "absence" controls.

 

 

1

 

I can tell I am going to have to work this for a while.  I found a post that discussed using an SPL meter and a procedure to follow.  I downloaded a few apps to my phone and gave it a whirl.  Then I started manually adjusting after that.  I think the sub is too much for the room.  I had to tune it way down both after the automated setup and the manual one I tried last night.  It seemed to be best when I first just turned the center speaker up from the original automated setup.    I'm considering investing in a proper meter.

 

I set the front speakers to "small".   I'll have to check and see if I have an equalizer for just the center speaker.  The crossover is whatever the default is now, @dimanata2007 , which I think is 60.  The article I was reading suggested changing the crossover to 80.

 

Interestingly enough, @garyrc , the movie we were watching and having so much difficulty hearing the spoken word was Dunkirk.  Lots of accented speakers.  The problem, really, is setting it so that even the soft spoken words can be heard fairly clearly, but the sound effects and music aren't overly loud.

 

I appreciate all the suggestions!

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12 hours ago, JJkizak said:

If you have a PLC IIX setting on your receiver that will help some.

When I first read the problem, I was thinking this as well.

 

@Niterox I don't know your Yamaha so I don't know the verbiage, it's a little different from company to company.  I know the Marantz and Onkyo AVR's.

 

What you are looking for is the listening mode, ie Stereo, Dolby D, PLII, etc.  Specifically my Onk a mode for PL II Cinema, and PL Music.  The Music setting throws the sound outward to the L/R, the Cinema mode sends most sound, in particular the voices to the center speaker.

 

Check the settings in your Yammie and choose the Cinema mode if you have one, see if that helps.  I think it will.

 

Edit: I just checked the specs on the RX-V683.  It has a mode called "Silent Cinema" and another mode called "Dialog Lift."  I don't know exactly what those do, but it sounds like may be what you're looking for to enhance dialog.  Check your manual.

https://usa.yamaha.com/products/audio_visual/av_receivers_amps/rx-v683_u/specs.html#product-tabs

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I am looking forward to Dunkirk, but now I'm thinking if the mixers can't produce crystal clear dialogue in a brand new 70 mm production, with potentially the best SQ out there, things may be worse than I thought.

 

Are male and female voices equally problematic?

 

If the AVR and pre/pro manufactures would only make the tone controls affect the center channel as well as the FL and FR, we would be better off.

 

 

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@Niterox, if your wife can hear the dialogue from the Samsung flat screen TV well enough, it may be because it probably has a frequency response peak at about 4KHz, as do many flat screens.  So it would be great to be able to imitate that in your center channel.

 

While an SPL meter might be fun to have, I don't know what good it would really do. 

 

Is your center channel clear enough if all the other channels are turned off?  If so it may be just a matter of competition between the channels.  Put on Dunkirk and try turning up the center channel 1 dB at a time.  When it's clear enough, add in the other channels, and try to get a workable ratio. 

 

In our bedroom we have Klipsch Promedia 2.1, hooked up to the TV.  When one of us has insomnia, we may want to watch TV until it bores us to death, sleep, but we must keep the volume down to avoid disturbing the other one.  It's just too frustrating for the dialogue to be muddy at that low a volume, so we installed some EV T-35s (these are the tweeters that became the Klipsch K-77, after passing frequency response tests for more quality control than EV provided at the time).  We turned them up about 6 dB higher than flat, but played the overall sound considerably lower than 6 dB too low (more like 12 dB).  That lets the sleeper sleep, while the insomniac can understand the dialogue very clearly, indeed.   We alternate this, on different nights, with reading, but often wake the next morning with the TV on, rather than finding oneself on a crumpled book.

 

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11 hours ago, garyrc said:

I am looking forward to Dunkirk, but now I'm thinking if the mixers can't produce crystal clear dialogue in a brand new 70 mm production, with potentially the best SQ out there, things may be worse than I thought.

 

Are male and female voices equally problematic?

 

If the AVR and pre/pro manufactures would only make the tone controls affect the center channel as well as the FL and FR, we would be better off.

 

 

Well, my center speaker was tuned down to less than the front speakers from the original auto setup program.  That was a lot of the problem.  Once I boosted that it was a lot better.

 

Something that added to the confusion a little bit is the RX-V683 has this DSP function that allows you to change venues for different sounds: a Hall in Vienna, or a small nightclub, etc.  It's not very helpful if the speakers aren't set up properly to begin with!

 

Dunkirk was pretty good.  Mostly male voices, understandably.

 

I will definitely play with the configuration.  I was hoping for a "wow" kind of sound from this setup.  I'm sure it is in there.  It will just take a little work.  Too many of us novices expect a perfect plug and play experience right off the bat these days.  

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On 12/28/2017 at 11:01 AM, RoboKlipsch said:

the room itself is usually the culprit

in your case what stands out is the bass is too loud...rare in an autosetup

 

since you hear the tv well and not the speakers id venture a guess that most or all the speakers are up against walls and need to be moved out.  or perhaps you are running the fronts as Large and using a sub which is not working well....or third the crossover setting is too low potentially. all guesses without knowing more

 

in most untreated rooms bumping the center a few db will help. 

 

some cable stations like tnt and scify are notorious for compressing the dynamic range makingvolume esp for voices awful

you have not properly addressed this....i believe it is the sub positioning

if a sub booms it will muddy everything

 

i have 4 and 6 subs in average rooms and it isnt too much but would be if not properly placed

 

fundamental setup basics must be addressed first

where is the center channel...perhaps in an entertainment center?

 

these issues can be easily fixed 

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