Muddy Spoken Words In Movies

[Niterox]

4 minutes ago, RoboKlipsch said:

you have not properly addressed this....i believe it is the sub positioning

if a sub booms it will muddy everything

 

i have 4 and 6 subs in average rooms and it isnt too much but would be if not properly placed

 

fundamental setup basics must be addressed first

where is the center channel...perhaps in an entertainment center?

 

these issues can be easily fixed 

Hmm.  My front and center speakers are on a cabinet directly under the flat screen, about 14 feet from my chair, pretty much straight on.  The sub is on the floor, to the left of the cabinet at about 13 feet from the chair.  It is behind a side table and kind of blocked by a chair, but I did not think that mattered?  Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of options for placing the sub.

[garyrc]

5 hours ago, Niterox said:

Hmm.  My front and center speakers are on a cabinet directly under the flat screen, about 14 feet from my chair, pretty much straight on.  The sub is on the floor, to the left of the cabinet at about 13 feet from the chair.  It is behind a side table and kind of blocked by a chair, but I did not think that mattered?  Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of options for placing the sub.

 

Try optimizing the sub setting first, so the center speaker's sound can cut through the bass, then try some of the below.  Each of these changes may make a subtle difference, but they may add up.

• Make sure the center speaker is pulled forward enough so that its sound doesn't bounce off of the cabinet it is sitting on.  A 1/4 inch overhang is enough.  Just make sure the center speaker can't "see" the cabinet without traversing a greater than 180 degree angle.
• In your case, it might be a good idea to make sure the sub is not against a wall. 
• Make sure there are no knees, legs, feet, recliner foot rests, ottomans or poufs in a straight line between your ears and the center speaker.  The mid and some high frequencies that make for clarity, detail, and illuminate the fricative consonants can be absorbed rather easily, and don't turn corners well.
• Start out with the Yamaha environment simulator (nightclub, concert hall, etc.) OFF, and only judiciously add it back in after the dialogue is clear, if you use it at all.  The filmmakers put in any reverb they think is helpful "in the mix," and almost always only in the music and effects, not the dialogue.   Perhaps the Yamaha does not process the center channel?  That would be good.
• Keep the room correction off until you attain dialogue clarity.  After that, it could help.
• Coffee tables can be nightmares to audiophiles.  I prefer to get rid of them.  If you have one, and must have one, try putting a soft table runner on it.  The primary problem with coffee tables is adding one more early reflection.  Secondarily, they encourage drinks and clunking ice cubes.  Mike Todd attempted to ban ice in drinks, popcorn, noisy candy wrappers, etc. from theaters showing films in Todd-AO because -- and this is a quote -- "They f**k up the stereo."  
• Speaking of reflections, leather, plastic, or glossy recliners or couches may benefit from having thick, soft throw blanket thrown over them.  Also, room correction software in which mics are put on seats can be confused by shiny surfaces that are nearby.
• Can you send pictures?

 

[Rivernuggets]

20 hours ago, Niterox said:

The problem, really, is setting it so that even the soft spoken words can be heard fairly clearly, but the sound effects and music aren't overly loud.

Lots of movies have this trait, unfortunately, where the dialogue is too quiet compared to the sound effects and battle scenes. There should be a contrast, all well and good. But many times I'm turning dialogue up, action scenes down, and back and forth.

Good luck getting things dialed in and properly set.

[CECAA850]

22 hours ago, garyrc said:

I am looking forward to Dunkirk, but now I'm thinking if the mixers can't produce crystal clear dialogue in a brand new 70 mm production, with potentially the best SQ out there, things may be worse than I thought.

 

 

We watched it tonight.  No issues with dialog whatsoever other than the occasional British accent.  Normally, if we missed a word or two, my wife or I would let the other of us know what was said as one of us would get it.  I chalk those few times up to not catching the accent and not a bad sound mix.

[RoboKlipsch]

22 hours ago, Niterox said:

Hmm.  My front and center speakers are on a cabinet directly under the flat screen, about 14 feet from my chair, pretty much straight on.  The sub is on the floor, to the left of the cabinet at about 13 feet from the chair.  It is behind a side table and kind of blocked by a chair, but I did not think that mattered?  Unfortunately, I don't have a lot of options for placing the sub.

what u describe all sounds fine

 

 the sub. behind a chair or in a corner is fine but if u could try moving it another foot or two away from any near wall u might solve part of it.  a sub near a wall can boom at some frequencies and correction cannot always fix all of it.  if some midbass frequencies are too strong it will mask the clear voicing u want from the center.  i doubt the center placement is an issue but the symptom of one sub sounding like too much screams of a placement or gain issue.  if the avr is dialing the sub in a range not at the extreme then gain is ok.  if the gain is ok then the placement must be causing this issue.  

 

u could have 20 subs in a room and if properly placed and dialed in would not be too much. it would just be very co sistent throughout the room.  so thats my 2c....its the sub

[YK Thom]

Interesting thread. I also use the RC62 centre. I find it very clear and neutral for dialogue, however I have found Audessey generally sets it a bit low, so I have adjusted it. I have to agree with statements about the soundtracks, they are not created equal. I find many have background and effect sounds far too high in relation to dialogue. Others are just mixed funky. We watched a couple movies yesterday and I had to slightly alter the centre levels with both of them. Once we are finished, I move it back to where we leave it for regular TV.

[wvu80]

On 12/29/2017 at 8:55 PM, Rivernuggets said:

On 12/29/2017 at 12:13 AM, Niterox said:

The problem, really, is setting it so that even the soft spoken words can be heard fairly clearly, but the sound effects and music aren't overly loud.

Lots of movies have this trait, unfortunately, where the dialogue is too quiet compared to the sound effects and battle scenes. There should be a contrast, all well and good.

I completely forgot about that!

 

The Yammie AVR should also have a setting where the highs and lows are equalized.  Reducing the contrast would certainly help with the clarity of the dialog.

 

I personally like the most amount of contrast because that is how live music sounds, but for TV watching you don't want that because it's too intense to be relaxing, at least for my tastes.  It's not an all or nothing setting, there are usually about 5 settings so you can still get some contrast but not the max amount.

 

It also occurs to me the SPL might not be loud enough to properly load the horn tweeter or mid-driver.  My wife likes to listen to sound very, very soft.  It's a credit to the speakers that they are crystal clear at low SPL's, but I don't think there's enough acoustic energy to load the horns.

[Niterox]

On 12/29/2017 at 4:52 PM, garyrc said:

 

Try optimizing the sub setting first, so the center speaker's sound can cut through the bass, then try some of the below.  Each of these changes may make a subtle difference, but they may add up.

• Make sure the center speaker is pulled forward enough so that its sound doesn't bounce off of the cabinet it is sitting on.  A 1/4 inch overhang is enough.  Just make sure the center speaker can't "see" the cabinet without traversing a greater than 180 degree angle.
• In your case, it might be a good idea to make sure the sub is not against a wall. 
• Make sure there are no knees, legs, feet, recliner foot rests, ottomans or poufs in a straight line between your ears and the center speaker.  The mid and some high frequencies that make for clarity, detail, and illuminate the fricative consonants can be absorbed rather easily, and don't turn corners well.
• Start out with the Yamaha environment simulator (nightclub, concert hall, etc.) OFF, and only judiciously add it back in after the dialogue is clear, if you use it at all.  The filmmakers put in any reverb they think is helpful "in the mix," and almost always only in the music and effects, not the dialogue.   Perhaps the Yamaha does not process the center channel?  That would be good.
• Keep the room correction off until you attain dialogue clarity.  After that, it could help.
• Coffee tables can be nightmares to audiophiles.  I prefer to get rid of them.  If you have one, and must have one, try putting a soft table runner on it.  The primary problem with coffee tables is adding one more early reflection.  Secondarily, they encourage drinks and clunking ice cubes.  Mike Todd attempted to ban ice in drinks, popcorn, noisy candy wrappers, etc. from theaters showing films in Todd-AO because -- and this is a quote -- "They f**k up the stereo."  
• Speaking of reflections, leather, plastic, or glossy recliners or couches may benefit from having thick, soft throw blanket thrown over them.  Also, room correction software in which mics are put on seats can be confused by shiny surfaces that are nearby.
• Can you send pictures?

 

 

Well, this is all good information.  I misspoke when I said the center speaker was on top of the cabinet.  It is underneath the cabinet!   Maybe not a terrible problem, but the lower face of the cabinet blocks the top of the speaker grill by about 2 inches.  Probably not optimum.   My other choice is on top of the cabinet, but there are some decorative items in that space and I will likely lose that battle.

 

On 12/30/2017 at 9:36 AM, RoboKlipsch said:

what u describe all sounds fine

 

 the sub. behind a chair or in a corner is fine but if u could try moving it another foot or two away from any near wall u might solve part of it.  a sub near a wall can boom at some frequencies and correction cannot always fix all of it.  if some midbass frequencies are too strong it will mask the clear voicing u want from the center.  i doubt the center placement is an issue but the symptom of one sub sounding like too much screams of a placement or gain issue.  if the avr is dialing the sub in a range not at the extreme then gain is ok.  if the gain is ok then the placement must be causing this issue.  

 

u could have 20 subs in a room and if properly placed and dialed in would not be too much. it would just be very co sistent throughout the room.  so thats my 2c....its the sub

 

This is definitely an issue as I have it crammed in a corner with one side of it right next to the wall.  I can probably move it but I will have to get a longer cable.

 

6 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I completely forgot about that!

 

The Yammie AVR should also have a setting where the highs and lows are equalized.  Reducing the contrast would certainly help with the clarity of the dialog.

 

I personally like the most amount of contrast because that is how live music sounds, but for TV watching you don't want that because it's too intense to be relaxing, at least for my tastes.  It's not an all or nothing setting, there are usually about 5 settings so you can still get some contrast but not the max amount.

 

It also occurs to me the SPL might not be loud enough to properly load the horn tweeter or mid-driver.  My wife likes to listen to sound very, very soft.  It's a credit to the speakers that they are crystal clear at low SPL's, but I don't think there's enough acoustic energy to load the horns.

 

I may have had a breakthrough here.   I looked through the RX-V683 Manual for a contrast setting and I discovered a few things.    I had set the front speakers to "small", but left the center "large", so I changed it to "small".  Then, there is a Parametric EQ section and I had selected "YPAO: Flat", which "Adjusts individual speakers to achieve the same characteristics.", so I changed it to "YPAO: Natural" which "Adjusts all speakers to achieve a natural sound.".     I also adjusted the center speaker distance to be a foot closer, which it is.    The spoken word is now almost too loud!   I am very encouraged by this!!   I watched some of the shows we tried last night that were clearly better on the TV speakers and they sounded much better tonight after my adjustments.   I just want her to not hate the sound system.   I really appreciate all the tips I'm getting here!

[wvu80]

37 minutes ago, Niterox said:

I may have had a breakthrough here.   I looked through the RX-V683 Manual for a contrast setting and I discovered a few things. 

You did your homework and it sounds as if it's paying off.

 

I was a 2-channel man for 40 years until 2014 when I got my first modern 7.2 AVR, an Onkyo TX NR717.  It was very confusing!  Even the daggone volume didn't work the same as my old receivers, I mean really, who turns the volume up to 82 for ordinary listening???  I had to completely throw out my concepts of how sound was produced in stereo speakers to fully appreciate how 5.1 was designed to work.

 

It took me 3 months of constant fiddling, reading, getting advice on the internet to finally figure out what all those settings meant and how they affected the sound.

 

I'm still learning, but at least I'm not changing my listening modes a dozen times a day!  Now I've got it down to about once a week. 

[On The Beach]

 

I like to listen to movies at about 65 - 70 db and quite often there are problems hearing the spoken word.  If I turn up the volume to 80 db (which is too loud for my liking), the balance between voice, music and sound effects is much better.  

 

Are soundtracks being mixed at too high a level, which is fine in a large movie theater but not in a home environment?
 

[wvu80]

29 minutes ago, On The Beach said:

 If I turn up the volume to 80 db (which is too loud for my liking), the balance between voice, music and sound effects is much better.  

What AVR do you have?  There is a setting called Dynamic Volume which brings the highs down, the lows higher and tends to make a more listenable TV experience without being too loud.  It is usually adjustable in Light, Medium and Heavy.

[On The Beach]

1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

What AVR do you have?  There is a setting called Dynamic Volume which brings the highs down, the lows higher and tends to make a more listenable TV experience without being too loud.  It is usually adjustable in Light, Medium and Heavy.

 

Thank you for your feedback.  I have a Denon AVR-X3300W.  

 

Compared to a movie, when I watch a TV drama with a 5.1 soundtrack, I rarely have problems understanding the spoken word.  

 

In the music industry, most producers will review their work on various sized speakers and at different volume levels before they release it.  

 

I get the impression that when movie studios create a Blu Ray or DVD, most of them take care in encoding the video for playback on a TV, but just copy across the multi channel audio without consideration of how it will sound in the home.
 

[wvu80]

7 hours ago, On The Beach said:

Thank you for your feedback.  I have a Denon AVR-X3300W.  

I was looking at your avatar.  I'm guessing your first name is Einstein, or you are a Phillip Glass fan. 

 

 

[garyrc]

On 1/2/2018 at 5:40 PM, wvu80 said:

I was looking at your avatar.  I'm guessing your first name is Einstein, or you are a Phillip Glass fan. 

 

 

 

On the Beach: I hope wvu80's guess is correct, rather than your moniker being named after the novel or movie On the Beach, given the current international situation.  But if the latter is true, we should all remember, "There's Still Time Brother" ... Fx: the flapping of canvas.

[On The Beach]

On 03/01/2018 at 1:40 AM, wvu80 said:

I was looking at your avatar.  I'm guessing your first name is Einstein, or you are a Phillip Glass fan. 

 

 

 

 

Sorry for not replying sooner but I have a nasty eye infection.  There are two reasons for my username.

 

I am a fan of Chris Rea's song "On The Beach"

 

 

 

 

I live in Fuerteventura, Canary Islands.  I am lucky to live about a mile away from what is considered to be one of the best beaches in Europe:

 

 

 

 

And there are plenty more like that:

 

 

Edited January 5, 2018 by On The Beach

[Niterox]

Okay, I have come to my senses and decided to keep the Forte IIs I had put up for sale :

 

 

Now, can I ad the Forte IIs to this setup as front speakers and make the RB-61s the surround speakers?  Is that too much?  The Forte IIs sound so good I am tempted to dump this whole setup and just use them!

[jjptkd]

5 minutes ago, Niterox said:

Okay, I have come to my senses and decided to keep the Forte IIs I had put up for sale Now, can I ad the Forte IIs to this setup as front speakers and make the RB-61s the surround speakers?  Is that too much?  The Forte IIs sound so good I am tempted to dump this whole setup and just use them!

 

The forte II's make excellent front speakers

[dtel]

2 hours ago, Niterox said:

Okay, I have come to my senses and decided to keep the Forte IIs I had put up for sale :

Smart move.

 

On 1/5/2018 at 2:26 PM, On The Beach said:

I live in Fuerteventura, Canary Islands.

I use to know alot of people from the Canary islands. There is a whole community in South East Louisiana, Delacroix Island, Yscloskey and Shell Beach. They are all fisherman, these are all fishing villages.