Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 13, 2018 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 hour ago, USNRET said: I have met one. He is a Carnegie Melon Civil Engineer that has worked aeronautics exclusively since school. I know one too, my Uncle Ken, an EE from A & M. Before he retired he ran (at the time) the largest open-pit coal mine in the US for Texas Utilities at Martin Lake (outside Carthage in east Texas) which included keeping a dragline and electric railroad operational. He teaches pottery at the Art Center in Rockport. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 2 hours ago, vasubandu said: OK, so we start with the precious RC-7 center. Now it has 8 inch woofers so it needs big and powerful LR. I am going to go with the SVS Ultra, 2- 8" woofer, 2 6.5" mid-range and 1" tweeter. For the surrounds, M&K SUR-95T. Of course I need a subwoofer or two, and for that I have to head north. All the way to Fort St. John in BC Canada to visit Funk Audio. And since I am not totally insane, I nab one of their 18.0C models, although it does still go down to 10Hz. Now on paper, those speakers do not have drastically different specs from mine. The best chocoloates in the world are a blend, as are the best wines. Even a varietal wine has some kind of blend if it wants to achieve greatness. So why would I listen to Merlot all the time? Bear in mind that I say all this in jest, but there is a kernel of a genuine question there too. The RC-7 is about 6 to 10 dB more sensitive than the 88 dB/2.83v/1m SVSs, depending on how you look at it. So your AVR will have to turn the RC-7 down quite a bit. To get 105 dB Reference peaks in your room (if it is about average in size and acoustics), and allowing for a loud sound coming from LF or RF, only, sometime during the movie, you may need -- just for a moment or two -- about 100 real watts into each SVS, not typically fudged AVR watts, i.e. you may need 100 watts per channel, all channels operating, 20 to 20K Hz, 8 ohms, at minimal distortion [below about 0.09%). So, if you would like to hear it like the mixing engineers heard it, you might be better off with speakers just as sensitive as the RC-7, all the way across. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tigerwoodKhorns Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 hour ago, USNRET said: I have met one. He is a Carnegie Melon Civil Engineer that has worked aeronautics exclusively since school. I use to ask why people were in engineering school. I always loved "Well I am good in math and science." I would then ask, can you change a set of spark plugs? Ever has a wrench in your hands? The answer was usually no. There are quite a few engineers that build and fabricate, but many who do not. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasubandu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 @garyrc I get the feeling that you are probably right. One of the things that baffles me is why it is so hard to generate and control the power. I have little knowledge in this area, but it brings me back to the metal halide bulbs for my saltwater aquariums. They require a ballast, and forever, all we had was tar ballasts. But now we have digital ballasts. Instead of being hot, they run cool, and they use far less energy. I know that we now have Class D digital amps, but I am not sure how widespread they are or how well they work. It certainly seems like we should be able to create an amp that can satisfy the demand up to the rated capacity for all of the channels, including the hypothetical case where all of then require the max at the same time. I ran into kind of similar issues with LED lights when I worked on a project with them, but the demand was easier to meet and is was more a matter of distribution. Still, why hasn't anyone figured this out? And thanks for the lesson. It was illuminating. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasubandu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 12 minutes ago, tigerwoodKhorns said: I use to ask why people were in engineering school. I always loved "Well I am good in math and science." I would then ask, can you change a set of spark plugs? Ever has a wrench in your hands? The answer was usually no. There are quite a few engineers that build and fabricate, but many who do not. Yeah, that is a great point. When I was in high school, I could pop the hood on my car, and I knew what everything was. Now I have no clue. That doesn't bother most people, but it drives me crazy. I want to understand how my car works so I can fix it. As we specialize more and more, people lose touch with how things connect or why they matter. The reason why I love the law is that we are generalists, and our job requires use to learn the subject of our matters. And that really suits my nature. I probably won't actually spend all that much time listening to the home theater I am creating - it is for my wife and kids. For me, the fun is in learning something new well enough that I can competently assemble, maintain, troubleshoot and improve it. I get the sense that you must be somewhat the same. Sadly, even our profession is falling victim to the specialization and narrow mind approach. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 36 minutes ago, vasubandu said: @garyrc I get the feeling that you are probably right. One of the things that baffles me is why it is so hard to generate and control the power. I have little knowledge in this area, but it brings me back to the metal halide bulbs for my saltwater aquariums. They require a ballast, and forever, all we had was tar ballasts. But now we have digital ballasts. Instead of being hot, they run cool, and they use far less energy. I know that we now have Class D digital amps, but I am not sure how widespread they are or how well they work. It certainly seems like we should be able to create an amp that can satisfy the demand up to the rated capacity for all of the channels, including the hypothetical case where all of then require the max at the same time. I ran into kind of similar issues with LED lights when I worked on a project with them, but the demand was easier to meet and is was more a matter of distribution. Still, why hasn't anyone figured this out? And thanks for the lesson. It was illuminating. As illuminating as the metal halide bulbs? IMO, the best way to get the Sound Pressure Level needed is to use efficient speakers -- like most Klipsch. Here's a comparison: To produce 105 dB continuous at 13 feet, in a 4,000 cu. ft. room, a typical speaker (90 dB/2.83v/1m) needs 128 watts, but a Klipschorn or La Scala II needs only 16 watts to provide the same SPL. Depending on room location, an RF-7 would need about 32 some odd watts. All of these take into account room gain -- I think. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasubandu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 You know @garyrc as I have been poking around looking for another tower or surround speaker to put into my mix, I am coming up pretty empty. My RS-7 is rated 98 dB @ 2.83 volts/1 meter, and I cannot find another surround over 90. The same is true with the towers. The RF-7 is 102 dB, and I can't get out of the 80's with any other brand. That is one hell of a stark contrast. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasubandu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 Hey @garyrc I solved my problem. You said I would need 100 real watts. Fine, meet my new amplifier. http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html Yeah, that is 40,000 Watts, and it fits in my cabinet. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Schu Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 Gak...  Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 JBL M2. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 13, 2018 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2018 12 hours ago, vasubandu said: OK, so we start with the precious RC-7 center. Now it has 8 inch woofers so it needs big and powerful LR. I am going to go with the SVS Ultra, 2- 8" woofer, 2 6.5" mid-range and 1" tweeter. For the surrounds, M&K SUR-95T. Of course I need a subwoofer or two, and for that I have to head north. All the way to Fort St. John in BC Canada to visit Funk Audio. And since I am not totally insane, I nab one of their 18.0C models, although it does still go down to 10Hz. Now on paper, those speakers do not have drastically different specs from mine. The best chocoloates in the world are a blend, as are the best wines. Even a varietal wine has some kind of blend if it wants to achieve greatness. So why would I listen to Merlot all the time? Bear in mind that I say all this in jest, but there is a kernel of a genuine question there too. Most speakers are voiced to some, not.so much an issue with subs. But Mixing fronts with L and R can cause an EQ mismatch. In a movie not as.big a deal because about 80%.comes.from center. Distortion. Can be different between them, and you could end up with more IM distortion in order to volume match and this would result in unpleasing and fatigue. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted January 13, 2018 Moderators Share Posted January 13, 2018 1 hour ago, Kain said: JBL M2. I would like to hear those. Have you heard them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kain Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 14 minutes ago, dwilawyer said: I would like to hear those. Have you heard them? No, I haven't heard them but have heard absolutely raving reviews/impressions of them. I've done quite a bit of research on them as well. But I do own its baby brother (JBL LSR305 monitors + JBL LSR310S subwoofer) for my 2.1 setup for my desktop computer. The LSR305 sounds damn amazing considering what I paid for them. Plus, the imaging is phenomenal. The sound sounds "holographic" sometimes due to the incredible imaging. I can only imagine what the real deal (the M2) sounds like. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 11 hours ago, vasubandu said: Woot! @Mallette to the rescue! Let's just not ask him about mixing Klipsch and Definitive speakers. Fair enough, vasubandu. I don't comment on what I haven't heard. However, I've mixed Klipsch Heritage and Frazier for years in various combinations using K'horns and Mark IV's, V's, and Super Monte Carlos. The last was my music room in Seabrook where I used Monte Carlo's hung in the rear with a DynaQuad for 4 channels from 2 with that wonderful, organic device. The sound field was incredibly immersive and, as usually, most 2 channel types only noticed just how deep, wide, and detailed the image was. It is not surprising that Jack Frazier was the only other engineer I know of that PWK had little but good to say about. I believe they were in friendly competition for years. I don't know if the Mark IV came before or after the Heresy, but I've often thought that Heresy might well have been inspired by Frazier. I know I saw a Dixielander in PWK's area at the plant on a visit and asked him about it. And PWK used Super Midgets with a handle on them to demonstrate the corner effect in the listening lab. Fraziers, as mentioned, merge seamlessly with Klipsch Heritage almost like members of the family. Dave Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasubandu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 @Mallette is have been making sweeping generalizations mostly just to get a rise out of people and partly to raise a question about which I know very little. I suspect that it is fair to say that mixing is neither good nor nor bad, but that how things are mixed will be. It must take a lot of time and thought to blend speakers with good results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mallette Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 52 minutes ago, vasubandu said: It must take a lot of time and thought to blend speakers with good results. Not at all. A little thought, but mainly just trying it. If the initial results are pleasing all you have to do is enjoy for a few months and if you forget the loudspeakers are there it's working! I've said for years that the worst comment an audiophile can get is "Wow, those are really great sounding loudspeakers!" If you are hearing the loudspeaker instead of the music, it isn't good enough. That's why I am a Heritage guy. Set up properly and fed the best source material, K'horn's and Fraziers simply disappear and what you get is music. Dave 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 14 hours ago, vasubandu said: You know @garyrc as I have been poking around looking for another tower or surround speaker to put into my mix, I am coming up pretty empty. My RS-7 is rated 98 dB @ 2.83 volts/1 meter, and I cannot find another surround over 90. The same is true with the towers. The RF-7 is 102 dB, and I can't get out of the 80's with any other brand. That is one hell of a stark contrast. Indeed. Some Klipsch models would be fine. Maybe some JBLs, but I don't know their current line. Reportedly, Klipsch assumes about 4 dB room gain for some of their speakers, so the anechoic for the RS-7 may be more like 94 dB, and the RF-7 more like 98 dB. Paradigm publishes both an anechoic and a room sensitivity. To get the full dynamic range of modern movies, you must get out of the 80s, unless the power handling is huge, and the amplifier a behemoth. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 8 hours ago, vasubandu said: Hey @garyrc I solved my problem. You said I would need 100 real watts. Fine, meet my new amplifier. http://www.pknc.com/3phase_eng.html Yeah, that is 40,000 Watts, and it fits in my cabinet. Yeah, that would do, even though it is really only 4,000 wts per channel, for each of 4 channels, and we don't know if that is over a 20 to 20K bandwidth, or is just at, say, 1K, and whether that is into 8 ohms, etc. But, for those 4 channels, it would probably be great, but you'd better have a fire extinguisher handy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vasubandu Posted January 13, 2018 Author Share Posted January 13, 2018 OK, well if I could just have one speaker for the rest of my life, I would take an RC-7. Everything that I have played on it sounds wonderful. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted January 13, 2018 Share Posted January 13, 2018 6 hours ago, dwilawyer said: Most speakers are voiced to some, not.so much an issue with subs. But Mixing fronts with L and R can cause an EQ mismatch. In a movie not as.big a deal because about 80%.comes.from center. Distortion. Can be different between them, and you could end up with more IM distortion in order to volume match and this would result in unpleasing and fatigue. I completely agree with your second statement. With some movies, 80% may come from the center, but not during climaxes in the soundtrack music, and not with sensuous feasts of sight and sound like Baraka, Fantasia or Fantasia 2000, the most important parts of Amadeus, or The Tree of Life and the finest moments contributed by Bernard Hermann, Miklos Rozsa, Jerry Goldsmith, John Williams, etc. Baraka, 1992 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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