Khorn Placement "technical" data

[Tony T]

So I'm wondering, what would the exact specs and full instructions for proper installation be for the notorious Horns? 

 

Here's what I've come to understand. I welcome any true to fact corrections;

 

1. Khorns should be placed no closer than 12' yet no farther than 24' apart'?

2. Must be installed with a one sided sticky neoprene (black spongy stuff) so as to push against the wall surface in order to properly isolate cabinet chamber?

3. From the corner of room, nothing but unobstructed wall 42" to the left, and 48" to the right of speaker location? No obstructions within this area including windows, doors, etc?

4. And finally, is it true that PKW's "optimal room size" is, in fact, 27' x 16' x 10' ceilings? If so, was his Khorn placements on the long wall or the short wall? Guessing the long wall.

 

 I custom built a (26' x 38' x 10' walls) room for my Khorns and LaScala's. The room also has vaulted ceilings at 14' tall going the direction of 38'. My intention is to place the Khorns on the short wall and naturally, LaScala's on the opposite side of the room. I feel certain this isn't the optimal room. Oh well!

 

Thanks, Tony

 

[TasDom]

Recommendations are in the Heritage manual

 

http://assets.klipsch.com/product-manuals/Heritage-Manual-2005.pdf

[JohnA]

I don't recognize anything in your list i would consider factual, though some of it is close.

Sealing K-horns to the wall is to ensure the bass horn is properly "extended".  No leaks.

There is no reason for different dimensions to obstructions on either side of the speaker.

Separation distance can be anything.  Wider placement may work better with a center channel, was what I remember from Mr. Paul.

 

[Chris A]

On 1/6/2018 at 2:06 PM, Tony T said:

1. Khorns should be placed no closer than 12' yet no farther than 24' apart'?

Back corner to back corner room separation (and this is typically the width of the room if not using false corners) really should be installed so that the listener is probably no closer than 10-12 feet from the rhumb line between the front inside corners of the Khorns placed in the corners.  The reason: something called the "minimum resolving distance", mostly due to the vertical separation of the horns/drivers and the differences in the drivers' time alignments. 

 

If you're willing to replace the Khorns passive crossovers with a DSP crossovers and tri-amp, then this minimum resolving distance is probably more like 5 feet or less.  This would make the minimum room width more like 9 feet. 

 

On 1/6/2018 at 2:06 PM, Tony T said:

2. Must be installed with a one sided sticky neoprene (black spongy stuff) so as to push against the wall surface in order to properly isolate cabinet chamber?

You can use false corners or any other flat non-resonant boards of sufficient thickness (about 3/4" thick minimum) to complete the last fold of the Khorn bass bin horn.  You don't have to use neoprene or any other sealing material if you've got a fairly good leak-proof seal separating the two sides of the bass bin horn--its bifurcated mouths. 

 

On 1/6/2018 at 2:06 PM, Tony T said:

3. From the corner of room, nothing but unobstructed wall 42" to the left, and 48" to the right of speaker location? No obstructions within this area including windows, doors, etc?

I'd put that figure at 24 inches minimum from the exit plane of the bass bin mouths, and 24-36 inches from the outside corners of the midrange horn mouth (radially from the speaker).  Anything inside that volume will form early reflections that will upset the midrange imaging of the loudspeakers.  More distance separation is better--up to about 4 feet on each side.  Anything between the Khorns on the front wall needs to be smooth and flush with the front wall, i.e., I don't recommend electronics on the front wall for best imaging performance.  Put the electronics on a side wall at least 3-4 feet away, and keep it as acoustically non-reflective as you can.

 

On 1/6/2018 at 2:06 PM, Tony T said:

4. And finally, is it true that PKW's "optimal room size" is, in fact, 27' x 16' x 10' ceilings? If so, was his Khorn placements on the long wall or the short wall? Guessing the long wall.

I recommend reading on this JAES article in terms of optimum room sizes: https://community.klipsch.com/applications/core/interface/file/attachment.php?id=79899, figures 12-15.  I recommend ceilings no lower than 8.5 feet when using any of the collapsing polar midrange horns used in the Klipsch Heritage line. The "placement along the long wall" advice is due to the minimum resolving distance issue mentioned above.  If you're tri-amping and time aligning the horns/drivers, then the long wall recommendation basically disappears.

 

On 1/6/2018 at 2:06 PM, Tony T said:

 I custom built a (26' x 38' x 10' walls) room for my Khorns and LaScala's. The room also has vaulted ceilings at 14' tall going the direction of 38'. My intention is to place the Khorns on the short wall and naturally, LaScala's on the opposite side of the room. I feel certain this isn't the optimal room

Not a problem in that size of room--using your room's short dimension.  In fact, you're probably going to have a hole-in-the-center issue between the Khorns if they are placed in the room corners separated by 26'.  You can use false corners to move the Khorns closer together or you can use a bridged center channel (recommended to use a La Scala or Belle, but not Heresy, Cornwall or Academy) if you plan to spread them out to the full 26' width. 

 

If you instead go for Jubilees instead of Khorns, then the Jubs will span that entire 26' width without the need for a center channel.  The difference is in the K-402 and bass bin polars and inherent time alignment.

 

Chris

[Tony T]

Thanks for the in depth response Chris. Your input makes good sense to me. I was already shopping for a single LaScala and find it's not an easy search. Thanks again!

Tony

[Tony T]

Hi again Chris,

 

I wonder, how many people do you that have or have utilized 4 Khorns? DO you feel it could be overkill? I'm considering buying an additional pair and using the Ls's for my outside courtyard. Once again, my room is 26 x 38 x 10.

 

Thanks for your input,

Tony

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Tony T]

I'll try it again ... How many people do you KNOW that have utilized 4 Khorns? 

[Chris A]

I know a few folks from this forum that have four Khorns.  If your room can accommodate them, I'd recommend that configuration over other Heritage surrounds.  The key here is distributed bass from the room corners that will negate the lowest room acoustic modes (a good thing), which in your room are at a very low frequency due to its dimensions.  The surround channels in surround arrays aren't used very often as full-duty sound channels, but when you do find a recording that uses the surrounds as independent sound channels, the results will be very good. 

 

The only drawback to having Khorns in all four room corners is the placement of the listening position for best sound envelopment.  If the listening position(s) place the rear Khorns too far back in terms of their angle from the front center of the room (usually 60-120 degrees is optimal for sound envelopment), then you'll be trading away a little in terms of the envelopment of the array.  See the following figure from Floyd Toole's book on Loudspeakers and Rooms for experimental listener assessment of different surround channel configurations, particularly the ones labeled configuration "e", "f" (quad), and "g", which could be close to the angular dimensions for putting four Khorns in your listening room with your chosen listening position (LP).  Where you place your listening position will affect not only the envelopment, but also the low frequency performance due to room modes:

 

 

Chris

[babadono]

I and many others use foam pipe insulation to seal the horn to the corner. I think it is the kind for 1/2" pipe, easy,peasy. It's already slit and just holds on to the 3/4" wood like it was made for that very purpose with no adhesives. Like I said easy,peasy.

[Tony T]

On ‎1‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:40 PM, babadono said:

I and many others use foam pipe insulation to seal the horn to the corner. I think it is the kind for 1/2" pipe, easy,peasy. It's already slit and just holds on to the 3/4" wood like it was made for that very purpose with no adhesives. Like I said easy,peasy.

I actually have some heavy duty neoprene that's purpose is to seal off HVAC Roof Top units. A person applies it to the metal roof curb, then cranes the HVAC package unit on top of the curb. Seals out all potential interferences between supply air & return air cavities, weather, etc. GREAT stuff! I plan on using it.

[Tony T]

 

Hey Chris

Thanks for your graph. Makes good sense. I'm guessing the bottom line is, set them up and find the best optimum listening arrangement. I suspect within my 26 x 38 area it will reveal itself. On the other hand, perhaps I'd need to do more of a 26 x 26 arrangement. Pull one set closer into the room and build a few false walls for the true corner arrangement. Hmm

[WMcD]

Thanks Chris.

 

It looks to me that, in a word, too much behind-ness is not good.  Probably people see speakers on the rear wall in a large movie theater and get the wrong idea.  Speakers on the rear wall might well be for the benefit of the audience in the very rear of the theater only.

 

As far as split pipe insulation.  I was working with a buddy's SK's to get a good seal. I found the split pipe insulation moved into the plywood and its thickness was not sufficient.  Therefore I put 1/2 x 1/2 weather stripping on the edge of the plywood and then split pipe foam over that.  So this made about 3/4 inches of foam. 

 

There is the matter of getting the s;plit pipe foam to go around angles.  Some triangular snips with poultry sheers solved that.

 

WMcD

[Tony T]

Different subject all together but, What does "collared" or "not collared" mean? I've read this term within the Klipsch Heritage "Codes" literature (thank you Groomlakearea51) pertaining to the older Khorns.

Also, seemingly a stupid question to ask but if a person had 1 pair of 89' Khorns, and another pair of  78' Khorns, would it be logical to assume that all 4 crossover boards should be the same within a 4 Khorn arrangement? All four speakers having AA's, AK's, AK-5, etc?

Or is it best to allow the age appropriate board to remain as is. I realize different crossover's were designed, specified and appropriated to their given year and/or engineering design although, I still wonder.

[Khornukopia]

1 hour ago, Tony T said:

What does "collared" or "not collared" mean?

 

The Klipschorn style B has two more layers of wood (than style C) between the bass bin and the top section, giving it the appearance of having a collar.

 

 

 

[Chris A]

11 hours ago, Tony T said:

Pull one set closer into the room and build a few false walls for the true corner arrangement.

False corners allow for placement flexibility without loss of over an octave's worth of low frequency extension, but they also take up more floor space, so there's a tradeoff there. 

 

The advantage of the Khorns is their midrange-tweeter height above the floor relative to other Heritage models--so that you can keep them on the floor and midrange axis is in the right place.  Elevating any speaker off the floor (or conversely, down from the ceiling if mounted there) will kill some amount of low bass performance.  I've personally found that distributing low bass around in small rooms is key to significantly improving low frequency coverage to deal with room modes.  For my ears, using the deep bass built into the surround channels is even more effective than using multiple subwoofers (in small rooms) due to:

1. the horn loading of the bass down to ~30 Hz by the Khorns, and
2. co-locating the deep bass with the rest of the channel in order to avoid having a "seam" in the bass response in the 40-200 Hz band due to phase and time alignment issues between main surround channels and subwoofers, as well as any issues with listeners perceiving the effects of separating the placement of lower frequencies from higher mid-bass frequencies. 

Chris

[Tony T]

Hello Khornukopia,

Nice looking speaker! Did you refinish? Or is that original?

[Khornukopia]

I bought these 11 years ago from the first owner who ordered them as Oak Raw, unfinished, then he applied walnut stain and lacquer.

[Jirachi]

Quote

You can use false corners to move the Khorns closer together or you can use a bridged center channel (recommended to use a La Scala or Belle, but not Heresy, Cornwall or Academy

The booklet I have specifically says the Cornwall can (or should?) be used as a center between Khorns

[Chris A]

See http://assets.klipsch.com/files/Dope_760600_v15n6.pdf written by PWK at a later date.

[Tony T]

Perhaps I'm not up to date on terminology. What does "flanking" mean exactly?