Subwoofers are hard.

[babadono]

On 1/8/2018 at 9:48 PM, vasubandu said:

Do I run a reverse splitter from the receiver (2) to the plate (1) and then run a splitter from the plate (1) to the subwoofer?

Just don't do this. That would tie 2 outputs together. Two outputs tied together = BAD.

[babadono]

32 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

Left Subwoofer goes BOOM and a second later, the right one picks up the echo with a boom.  The sound may be omnidirectional, but that does not mean we can't tell where it is coming from.

Psychoacoustically the directional information will be coming from frequencies higher than the subwoofer boom i.e. through your mains or surrounds. Or am I full of doo-doo?

[babadono]

A much cheaper and better spec subwoofer splitter cable:

https://www.monoprice.com/product?p_id=6261&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI_uTAiKPO2AIVEdtkCh1SHg_-EAYYAiABEgKKFPD_BwE

[muel]

REL subs can allow you connect to both LFE and speaker level to the same subs.  You can switch between 2 channel and surround sound effortlessly.   Otherwise, I wouldn't try using both the LFE and speaker level inputs at the same time unless the manufacturer says you can.  For 2 channel I would not consider a single sub and a low level connection.  I want a minimum of 2 subs and I'll use the speaker level inputs.   

[RoboKlipsch]

6 hours ago, vasubandu said:

@jjptkd and @CECAA850 you missed my wish.  I want a receiver that sends different signals to left and right.  I have to assume that the left and right signals include the information in subwoofer territory. So just imagine a car crash, but it is on the left side of the screen.  Left Subwoofer goes BOOM and a second later, the right one picks up the echo with a boom.  The sound may be omnidirectional, but that does not mean we can't tell where it is coming from.

 

While I am at it, I want a subwoofer that goes up to 300 Hz and works great at that level.  So it would actually produce sound as well, but with a 15 inch plus woofer.  And since it would be right or left, it would just supplement my mains.  

 

And yes, I am just being silly, but I do wonder about these things.  I need to learn more about how sound works, and I will.  When my speaker brand comes out, you all get free ones.

 

If it worked well I think everybody would do what you are wondering about

 

there is a  LFE channel that is mono and cuts off almost completely at 120hz...sub required to play this.

 

now what you consider is hmmm what about booms and crashes being directional from the directional channels?  good thinking

 

two things --

1) where the L C R and surround speakers are placed is almost never the best place for subs...so putting a sub under or next to those speakers will be very unlikely to create a consistent flat frequency response....this is counterintuitive but bear with me

 

2) frequencies below 120hz have very little directionality in a room and in fact what sounds like you can hear them is a less than optimal integration of speakers and subs. its an odd concept to learn at first but true.  thx specs a 80hz crossover precisely because with that setting the subs have almost no audible spl above 120hz....half an octave above 80hz.   a sub or subs that dont have the proper timing (known as delay, and set in most avrs as "distance") can sometimes be located because they are out of synch with the mains.  Also in most rooms the frequency response down low is quite different all over the room.  so to a certain degree the bass is louder at some points in the room....thus more subs properly placed smooths this out through a cool concept of cancellation and addition.  

 

some quality subs like svs do play to 300hz smoothly but nothing changes the fact that at higher frequencies, certainly over 200hz, you can localize them.  so usually a setting that high is only used with very small bass limited speakers that cant play down low enough.  its better to have a complete and smooth frequency response in room than to have a gap....but far better to have it also be consistent and  not localizable

 

cool reality is multiple subs properly placed and integrated are impossible to locate by ear.  the booms WILL come from the directional speakers because your ear can discern the direction of the higher frequencies and thinks all the sound comes from there.  grasp these concepts and you begin to understand the magic of acoustics in small rooms

 

treating a room with sound panels is incredibly beneficial, finding the best location for subs is almost as important, then proper integration creates a true HT experience

 

take the time to read up on each of these....reap the benefits

[vasubandu]

Absolutely fascinating @RoboKlipsch.  I very much appreciate the information.  I particularly enjoyed your statement "it worked well I think everybody would do what you are wondering about." I don't mean that in a mean way, just that statements like that are what get me motivated. I now understand the whats and the whys much better.

 

Imagine a single speaker that ranged from 20 to 20,000 Hz.  I mean a real full range speaker from 20 to 20,00 Hz with the ability to control levels across the board.  Might be a waste of time, but if you think about it, why should we need separate subwoofers?

 

I appreciate your discussion of the complexities and the room effects.  That would seem to make it hard to have a single full range speaker because the perceived sound would be different at different locations. I also appreciate the fact that things are done the way the way the are because a lot of very smart people worked very hard to figure things out.  I will never have the abilities or skills they did, and I know that.  But I find that goofing off with goofy ideas helps me to learn the parameters of new areas.

 

Then again, sometimes a novel or crazy idea actually works.  I had an LED project that everyone said would not work, but did.  And I was consulting with some really sophisticated people. So I figure it is always worth a little effort to try my crazy ideas.

[Ljk]

14 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

When you see a disc or track labeled as 5.1, the .1 channel is the LFE channel.  Normally your receiver will put the LFE track and everything below your crossover point on the Sub Out jack of your receiver.

 

Listen to the guys at SVS.

And if you hook speaker outs from sub to the other speakers (surrounds and mains)everything above crossover point goes to those speakers. When you get above to the 80 120 hz range you are getting more into the mid bass range. Just get a sub that digs low and you will be happy! Yours should work fine. 

[RoboKlipsch]

20 hours ago, vasubandu said:

Absolutely fascinating @RoboKlipsch.  I very much appreciate the information.  I particularly enjoyed your statement "it worked well I think everybody would do what you are wondering about." I don't mean that in a mean way, just that statements like that are what get me motivated. I now understand the whats and the whys much better.

 

Imagine a single speaker that ranged from 20 to 20,000 Hz.  I mean a real full range speaker from 20 to 20,00 Hz with the ability to control levels across the board.  Might be a waste of time, but if you think about it, why should we need separate subwoofers?

 

I appreciate your discussion of the complexities and the room effects.  That would seem to make it hard to have a single full range speaker because the perceived sound would be different at different locations. I also appreciate the fact that things are done the way the way the are because a lot of very smart people worked very hard to figure things out.  I will never have the abilities or skills they did, and I know that.  But I find that goofing off with goofy ideas helps me to learn the parameters of new areas.

 

Then again, sometimes a novel or crazy idea actually works.  I had an LED project that everyone said would not work, but did.  And I was consulting with some really sophisticated people. So I figure it is always worth a little effort to try my crazy ideas.

These do in fact exist, and are quite expensive....http://www.avsforum.com/forum/89-speakers/702657-list-speakers-

 

 

and I can point you a DIY build where he not only has a 20 to 20000 response per speaker but actually has 25+ subs to supplement the bass.  he has unlimited spl and can play subsonic frequencies up to an audible level....130+db at 10hz.....and it plays down to 3hz. 

 

if you are truly curious buy a Umik and download a free copy of REW.  measuring your own room will teach you....like most of us...as much or more than you could grasp just reading it.

 

 

 

 

[catman0122]

Here's what the manual says on page 4:

 

Hook-up (see fig. 1). There are a variety of ways to configure your

new sub. Usually, a simple mono, shielded 75 Ohm A/V RCA type

cable is used to take the subwoofer output of your DD/DTS

surround sound receiver and feed the low-level input of the sub's

amp. There is no need to "split" the signal going to the sub (c.). You

can feed either one of the two amp inputs, it doesn't matter, right or left.

 

The receivers you're looking at with two sub outs (if mono, as in not L & R) are designed to feed two separate subs. Depending on make and model, the receiver is either implementing an internal splitter of the same signal, or is actually independent of each other which can be processed separately for room correction.

 

SV oofers

[CECAA850]

On 1/11/2018 at 4:59 AM, Ljk said:

And if you hook speaker outs from sub to the other speakers (surrounds and mains)everything above crossover point goes to those speakers. When you get above to the 80 120 hz range you are getting more into the mid bass range. Just get a sub that digs low and you will be happy! Yours should work fine. 

That depends on the manufacturer.  Some allow a full signal out.  Some allow everything above the crossover out.  Some have a set filter for the mains and allow everything above that point to the mains.  There's not a standard that I'm aware of.

[vasubandu]

Being a weirdo, I have turned off the cutoff on my subwoofer.  If I understand things, my subwoofer is playing all of the signal that it can, and that seems to be the effect.  It does not cut in and out like it did before, and at the higher end, it seems to act like a speaker, which I guess it is.  I like it.

[Ljk]

On 1/25/2018 at 2:17 PM, CECAA850 said:

That depends on the manufacturer.  Some allow a full signal out.  Some allow everything above the crossover out.  Some have a set filter for the mains and allow everything above that point to the mains.  There's not a standard that I'm aware of.

True you have to look at receiver your own I was just speaking in general, trying not to confuse to much. 

[CECAA850]

11 minutes ago, Ljk said:

True you have to look at receiver your own I was just speaking in general, trying not to confuse to much. 

I was referring to the sub plate amp.

[vasubandu]

So @CECAA850 is the issue you talked about a receiver difference or a subwoofer difference. If I wanted to figure it out where do I look?

[CECAA850]

30 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

So @CECAA850 is the issue you talked about a receiver difference or a subwoofer difference. If I wanted to figure it out where do I look?

I was referring to how a sub plate amp handles high level inputs.  I've seen all of the above mentioned methods.  It's normally covered in the owners manual of the sub or plate amp.