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Amps make no sense


vasubandu

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

If you are using amplifiers whose output impedance is getting close to the input impedance of the loudspeakers (i.e., within 10x on the Ohm scale), then you have coupling and woofer damping (moving mass) differences in amplifier performance with the particular loudspeakers that you're using.  What kind of amplifiers-loudspeakers do we hear this most prominently?  Tube amplifiers coupled to loudspeakers having very non-flat input impedances.

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Chris

 

This, damping factor, has always been the most audible difference to me in one amp to another.  Other subtle things show up, but not quickly.

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"to deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements."

 

"Infer" was what I meant.

 

1 hour ago, vasubandu said:

this was me when I wandered in here.

Your needs are by far the most likely type to be found, even on this website.  Perhaps 1:10,000 will be like me, looking for something that has a certain kind of beauty...but perceivable to the ears only.

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@wdecho those are very good points, but again they are opaque to us.  We  don't know the R&D costs, etc.  At the same time, if they were making excessive profits, someone would cut prices and start a price war.  I don't understand the actual costs, which makes it hard for me to judge value.  If I knew about audio, I could judge value on the merits, but I am still dependent on specs, which is dangerous given the lack of honesty there.  All part of the learning exercise for me.  And I am lucky to have found a bunch of people who will put up with my questions and thoughts.

 

Then again, I have not mentioned that one of my goals is to be able to produce specific sounds with just an electric signal.  But not any sounds.  I want to see if it is possible to replicate a person's voice with such accuracy that it cannot be distinguished from the real thing.  So you could make a genuine recording of anyone saying anything.  Seems like a worthy goal.

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1 hour ago, Chris A said:

"to deduce or conclude (information) from evidence and reasoning rather than from explicit statements."

 

"Infer" was what I meant.

 

Your needs are by far the most likely type to be found, even on this website.  Perhaps 1:10,000 will be like me, looking for something that has a certain kind of beauty...but perceivable to the ears only.

I thought I was pretty explicit. 

 

Let me be more clear.

 

You have done a wonderful job in trying to educate people here that when you get to a certain  level of  system the quality of the recording becomes more and more important.

 

Stated another way, many, many people here have stated they didn't realize how bad a recording was until they heard them on speaker X.  Some, you will recall @Chris A , initially thought their new speakers had a problem, or were sounding bad. I recall on more than one occassion you making inquiry about what recordings someone was using, or suggesting it could be part of the problem, and people remarking later it was a particular recording that threw them off.

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, vasubandu said:

(From your signature quote)  I am finally getting the hang of this.  My latest brilliant idea is to perfect a 10-40000 Hz planar speaker that will cover the subwoofer and then install it in my ceiling.  Imagine, not a speaker in sight.  This one will take a few weeks, so stay tuned.

That won't work!  You alluded to it in another thread but I didn't understand what you had in mind.

 

For a planar to work the sound comes out of the front AND the back, in a push-pull mechanism.  It depends on toe-in and the reflection from the walls to work properly.  If you install a panel on the ceiling pointing straight down you won't get bass and the sound will not only be tinny, it will project in a very narrow angle and it won't properly image in the room. 

 

It would be like taking a standard bookshelf speaker and laying it face down on the floor.  It doesn't work that way.

 

Check with others smarter than me, but I think you will find there is a reason no one has ever mounted a planar in a ceiling, ever.

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Just to clarify: I thought that I hadn't really said that getting your setup in good shape leads you to examining your music more closely.  That's what I was referring to, above.   I did say that having more "hi-fi" loudspeakers made the process of hearing the flaws in your music more apparent. 

 

The two ideas are closely related, but not really the same.  Travis made the observation.  I agree.

 

Chris

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3 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

For a planar to work the sound comes out of the front AND the back, in a push-pull mechanism. 

Actually, there is an example of a monopole planar--it's called the Beveridge, and it uses not only a flat wall to mount against, it also uses "turning vanes" on the front face to do directivity improvement and loudness gain.  The basic design has been venerated many times, but they just got too expensive and too difficult to repair.  They started out like regular electrostatics in terms of price, but eventually reached 10x the price, which basically put them out of their market reach. 

 

They are apparently hand made, sort of like Magneplanars.

 

Chris

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2 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Actually, there is an example of a monopole planar--it's called the Beveridge, and it uses not only a flat wall to mount against, it also uses "turning vanes" on the front face to do directivity improvement and loudness gain.  The basic design has been venerated many times, but they just got too expensive and too difficult to repair.  They started out like regular electrostatics in terms of price, but eventually reached 10x the price, which basically put them out of their market reach. 

 

They are apparently hand made, sort of like Magneplanars.

 

Chris

Chris, I poo-poo'd the idea of mounting a planar on the ceiling.  Would you care to comment on that idea?  I used to own Magnapans, but your level of expertise is far above mine.

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39 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

Stated another way, many, many people here have stated they didn't realize how bad a recording was until they heard them on speaker X.

 In my case, I would  say it is more that I never thought of it at all.  I mean it is all digital, right, so it should be perfect.

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@wvu80 I am not sure what you mean.  You need to be more clear.  If I understand you, there might be some problems with mounting a planar speaker on the ceiling depending on how it is done.

 

Ok, I get it.  It sounds like a great idea if it would work, but you would get no left right, etc.  My thought was to create space above it (in an attic) so it had room to breathe so to speak, but I see what you are saying.  Funny then that people do sell ceiling planar  speakers and even get some decent reviews. Of course, they are just a speaker on a wall, and from what I read, planars do not like to play up down, only sideways.  I don't need to check with anyone else.  You explained it.

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1 minute ago, vasubandu said:

Funny then that people do sell ceiling planar  speakers and even get some decent reviews. Of course, they are just a speaker on a wall, and from what I read, planars do not like to play up down, only sideways.  I don't need to check with anyone else.  You explained it.

Remember, my comments are from my experience owning magnaplaners mounted in the proper orientation, from 30 years ago.  Chris alluded to a one-way panel that does mount in the ceiling.  You also commented that there are some ceiling planars that mount on ceilings which have gotten good reviews, so my information and experience might be out-of-date.

 

I love Magnaplaners.  My only complaint was they demand an exacting setup and are not nearly as wonderful off-axis.  But properly set up they will knock your socks off. 

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17 minutes ago, Chris A said:

Just to clarify: I thought that I hadn't really said that getting your setup in good shape leads you to examining your music more closely. 

 

Chris I think that I understand you.  If you have a mediocre system, then whatever you play is going sound mediocre, so it will pretty much all sound the same.  The quality loss because of the mediocre system is more apparent than the difference in media quality.  I am not sure that it would necessarily be bigger,  but I suspect that media differences would be masked by a mediocre system.  If that system is replaced with a quality system, then it will have the ability to express the qualities of the superior media, and at that point a person who really listens will notice that some of media (most?) does not display those qualities.  I would guess that in addition to media quality, there is also an element of player quality, but that seems like it would be harder to notice because it would be the same for all media.

 

On are in which I think that you are not giving yourself enough credit is that none of this is self-evident.  The listener is a critical part of of the process, and the listener must listen critically.  However, I suspect that as with most things, critical listening requirements elements of natural ability and elements of work or learning (probably more of the latter).  You obviously have talent and have put in the time, which is why I said that you have mastered the subject.  Mastery does not mean finished of course.

 

In any event, I bet you have a lot of wisdom to share about critical listening too.

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@wvu80 I did a quick but relatively deep dive into the subject.  Most of what I read was older, but is said that horizontal planar speakers are a bad idea.  But it was more some research  in left-right perceptions and Atmos that made me come to the conclusion that you would largely lose left-right altogether because the sound would be perceived as "up" not left or right. Sort fo the same reason you don't see any serious 5.1 setups with all ceiling speakers I guess.  I did, however, make me think of a system that entirely covers the walls and ceiling and then captures sound from any part of it.  So instead of 11.2 it would be infinity.2.  That would be impossibly complicated and require that 40 kHz amp I mentioned, but as a concept I find it interesting, and perhaps some day we will be there with a planar band  on the wall all the way around the room.

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1 hour ago, wvu80 said:

Chris, I poo-poo'd the idea of mounting a planar on the ceiling.  Would you care to comment on that idea?  I used to own Magnapans, but your level of expertise is far above mine.

 

Well, the issue is absorbing the back wave of the planar, and secondly directing the sound from a horizontal-ceiling to vertical.  Those are very difficult things to do, even one at a time.  The Beveridge loudspeakers only do the first one, and that became cost-prohibitive over time.  It did eliminate the backwave problem however, which is the source of the "head in a vise" issue for imaging of dipole planars.  That's why they were so venerated, I assume.

 

I own a pair of Magnepan MG-IIIa panels that I bought new in 1984...that were our main setup, driven with Carver M1.5t amplifier and the small Carver preamp of that time for about 20-25 years.  They're neutral and very transparent, but lacked the ability to achieve realistic SPL, and the sweet spot is about 3-6 inches wide and about 3-10 feet deep, even when placed out of the floor 6 feet from the closest wall or acoustically reflective object, and having a sloping ceiling from 8 feet to 20 feet.  Even then, they were difficult to deal with.  That's why I made the shift back into corner horns ten years ago. 

 

If you've owned Magnepans, my experience is probably equal to yours.

 

Chris

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A lot of the cost of high end products is in the packaging. Eyewash is expensive and totally unnecessary for high end performance, with a cool looking anodized amplifier case possibly costing hundreds in parts and labor before markup. There are lots of choices between plain and fancy looking at the same performance level with the buyer deciding if the added cost is worth it or not.

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