Enough receiver for now?

[vasubandu]

Alrighty then, I will defend the honor of that valiant company, Yamaha. 

 

Behold the might RX-AV2070 with 155 smoking watts per 9 channels.  490 Watts.  Maximum Power Consumption 1210 Watts.

 

What the heck?  

 

Power Supply
AC 120 V, 60 Hz (North American)
AC 220 - 230 V, 50/60 Hz (China)
Power Consumption
310 W
Power Consumption (Standby mode)
0.1 W (Full Standby mode)
1.7 W (Network Standby mode, Wired) (＊1)
2.0 W (Network Standby mode, Wireless) (＊2)
1.6 W (Bluetooth Wakeup mode) (＊3)
0.1 W (CEC standby mode) (＊4)
2.0 W (Standby mode, All on) (＊5)
Power Supply
AC 120 V, 60 Hz (North American)
AC 220 - 230 V, 50/60 Hz (China)
Power Consumption
310 W
Power Consumption (Standby mode)
0.1 W (Full Standby mode)
1.7 W (Network Standby mode, Wired) (＊1)
2.0 W (Network Standby mode, Wireless) (＊2)
1.6 W (Bluetooth Wakeup mode) (＊3)
0.1 W (CEC standby mode) (＊4)
2.0 W (Standby mode, All on) (＊5)
 

Now I am confused.

[willland]

44 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

at this point, I would prefer to avoid external amps.  It just does not seem like it should be necessary. 

With your system, unless you are planning on getting a flagship AVR, which still have their limitations, quality outboard amplification will extract the most from your RF-7 rig.  

Effortless headroom.

 

For now until you find what you want, use your Yamaha 673, but as mentioned be careful with the volume knob.  

 

Bill

[bkevind]

They all list specs as xxx watts per channel (2 channels driven @ xOhms)  Key words there are 2 channels driven.  It's the industry standard, up to the top of the line models from each manufacturer.  

This is why a lot of folks add external amps, that will be rated at the actual watts per channel ,all channels driven.  For example I"m using an Outlaw 5000, which is conservatively rated at 120wpc x 5, it measures out closer to 135 all channels driven, and it's only $500.  There are better options than that but it's a decent budget way to get more power if desired.  

 

That said, even if a given AVR will only output 70 wpc all channels driven, that is still capable of achieving fairly high SPL, depending on the efficiency of the speakers in question.  To take that a step further, if you're crossing over the majority of your speakers at 80Hz, those speakers will require less power to achieve higher SPL, because the lower frequencies tend to require the most power.  With a powered sub (or subs) this gives your entire system more headroom to work with. 

[vasubandu]

Fine, let's try Marantz.  A4Less has the SR6011 for $730.

 

 

 

Amplification
Number Of Channels	9
Stereo RMS Power (watts)	110
THD in Stereo	0.08%
Frequency Bandwidth (stereo)	20-20k Hz
Minimum Impedance L/R	4 ohms
Minimum Impedance Center	4 ohms
Minimum Impedance Surround	4 ohms

And now for the manual.

 

Power supply: AC 120 V, 60 Hz
Power consumption: 680 W
Power consumption in standby mode: 0.2 W
Power consumption in CEC standby
mode: 0.5 W
Power consumption in network standby

mode:

2.7 W

 

Only 680 Watts?  What a ripoff.  Someone should call the authorities

 

 

 

 

 

[vasubandu]

OK guys, this is going to sound a little crazy, but I think I need an amp.

[willland]

12 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

Well at least Onkyo is an honorable company.  Their RZ920 pumps out a kickass 175 watts per 9.2 channels. And the amazing thing is it does all that with 310 watts.

Well.......no.

Maybe 175w/ch in stereo but more like 117w/ch with 7 channels driven, which is pretty good for an AVR.

 

Bill

[jjptkd]

1 minute ago, vasubandu said:

OK guys, this is going to sound a little crazy, but I think I need an amp.

 

 I ran the 7's I had with a Sunfire Ultimate Receiver 200x7 and they got loud and sounded nice but the volume knob was cranked quite a bit, much higher than with my Chorus II's for the same output. I actually felt like they needed an outboard amp. Of course if you cut the nuts off the 7's and run them 80hz and above you can get away with a lot less but I cringe at the thought. 

[bkevind]

1 minute ago, vasubandu said:

OK guys, this is going to sound a little crazy, but I think I need an amp.

 

It's not a rush to get one.  If you're worried about amp head room, cross over all of your speakers at 80Hz and let your sub handle 80 and below.  This will take a hefty load off your amplifier.

 

Think about the efficiency rating of your speakers and what that means.  Lets take the RF-7.  Klipsch specs indicate they are 102dB at 2.83v / 1meter.  I don't know the math but lets say for guesstimate that's 95dB with 1watt @ 1 meter. (I'm being ungenerous just to err on the side of caution).  That's loud.  Ever 3dB gain requires a doubling of watts.  So with my inaccurate guess:

 

95dB @ 1 watt

98dB @ 2 watts

102dB @ 4 watts

105dB @ 8 watts 

...and so on. 

 

That's not to say there is no benefit to running a much more substantial amp, and a higher quality amp.  That's a whole different can of worms   

[vasubandu]

The Marantz has 680 and only goes up with the 7012 and then to 710.  Would 680 be enough or should I throw an amp on top of that.  To be honest, I am suddenly much more fond of Marantz because of what they offer.  And if I do get an amp, how much do I need?

 

I was totally unaware of all this because i did not know the right questions to ask.  I want to do this right, not half-assed.

[The History Kid]

Just now, vasubandu said:

 I want to do this right, not half-assed.

Then forget AVR's and buy separates.

[vasubandu]

2 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

f you cut the nuts off the 7's and run them 80hz and above you can get away with a lot less

@jjptkd that just seems like the wrong way to do it and likely to harm something.  Plus in a weird way, it would be unfair to you guys to pick your brains this much and then go do something stupid.  So amps have channels.  Does that include the sub?  If not I only need 5 right?

[willland]

9 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

OK guys, this is going to sound a little crazy, but I think I need an amp.

https://seattle.craigslist.org/est/ele/d/adcom-gfachannel-power/6440067821.html

 

For the price of entry, the above amp is plenty.

 

Bill

[vasubandu]

@The History Kid what separates do I need?  I would think something like a receiver for the processing, or is that the pre-amps I see?

[jjptkd]

Here's clip from one of Bob Carver's amplifier advertisements:

 

"Our M-1.5t description starts out with a story instead of the usual superlatives. Once, Bob Carver visited a famous sound researcher who was attempting to recreate the "snip" of an ordinary pair of scissors. He used no less that TWENTY-FOUR 200-watt amplifiers for playback. Yet when viewed on an oscilloscope it was apparent that the top of that instantaneous transition was being distorted. Believe it or not, he needed more power! It was evident that real-world sound occurs very quickly and requires far more power than ANY current amplifier could produce. The M-1.5t is a culmination of Bob's search for enough power, the ultimate amplifier for the reproduction of music today and for years to come. Why such massive amounts of amplifier power? Music is full of surprises such as explosive crescendos, combinant crests of demand created by multiple instrument sounds and the shock levels that some well-recorded instruments can instantly attain. This is what makes music live. These incredibly intense bursts of sound don't necessarily have to be loud. They are too short in duration. But, like the scissor snip, they are intense and demand power. Recorded music sounds dull without these constantly-occurring high instant peaks. If your amplifier cannot provide the instantaneous power to surmount these rigorous musical punches when they are presented at its inputs, it makes a sound of its own devising, literally an electronic gagging we call, clipping. The result is an audible degradation which has pervaded your listening for years. A form of distortion which has been difficult to avoid until the M-1.5t arrived."

[jjptkd]

2 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

@jjptkd that just seems like the wrong way to do it

 

You'd be surprised at just how many people actually do this.

[vasubandu]

My research was into Class D digital amps.  Bad idea for now?

[The History Kid]

2 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

@The History Kid what separates do I need?  I would think something like a receiver for the processing, or is that the pre-amps I see?

A good pre amp, and a good power amp.  Look at the offerings from Outlaw, Emotiva, and Cambridge.

[vasubandu]

OK, I am going to take a crash course into this. I honestly thought all along that I just needed an upper half receiver model.  I will post some candidates for comment here. I feel like I just found out my wife is a guy.

[bkevind]

AVR can offer great processing features, often for less than dedicated pre-amp / processors.

 

Marantz tends to spec out pretty well on the test results I've seen when it comes to watts per channel, all channels driven - but it's still not close to the rated power into 2 channels.  It would be a good choice as an AVR.

 

Plenty of people run their system with only an AVR, and are happy.  Your Klipsch speakers are efficient enough that you can enjoy them with a solid AVR.  If you want to achieve reference level volumes and above, then yeah it's a good idea to feed your speakers with a better amp - in particular the speakers you will be running at full range.  So the RF-7, and maybe the center.  In that case a good 3-channel amp would be a good investment to run the LCR, then let the AVR handle the other channels.  My first choice I think would be Parasound, but I don't have one because I don't want to spend that much 

 

Frankly, a very good sub or 2 (properly integrated) will blow away the RF-7 and most any other speaker when it comes to handling bass, and integrating speakers running at full range with a sub, can sometimes make the bass quality in the room worse.  

 

If you ask the theater guys, they will almost unanimously tell you to cross over all of your speakers at something less than full range, regardless of how big the speakers might be.  Does that mean they're right?  well I dunno, maybe it's mob mentality.  Typically for my use, I follow that advice with better results than when I don't.  I change my RF-7II to full range when I"m listening to music.  Even that doesn't usually sound better than letting my SVS SB-13 Ultra handle the bass, but I just want to give the RF-7II a run on their own once in a while.

 

 

[vasubandu]

@bkevind what if I ran a Marantz sr6011 that has 680 actual watts and the features I want and then added an amp on top of that?  I assume I would get the combined total power with no downside?  Is that right? I can get the Marantz for $730, which would leave money for a good amp.