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Enough receiver for now?


vasubandu

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27 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

@bkevind what if I ran a Marantz sr6011 that has 680 actual watts and the features I want and then added an amp on top of that?  I assume I would get the combined total power with no downside?  Is that right? I can get the Marantz for $730, which would leave money for a good amp.

 

While it's good to know the maximum power consumption, it doesn't necessarily tell the whole story.  Just know that, if you run the 6011 with 5 channels driven, or 9 channels driven, the watts per channel maximum, will be lower than the 110 watts per channel, 2 channels driven.  

 

Also keep in mind, for the vast majority of your listening time, you will only be sipping at watts, with spikes here and there for more dynamic music/movies.  That's where head room comes in, when you want those dynamic peaks to be properly handled at high volumes, with minimal distortion, with maximum control.

 

Anyway.  So with the 6011, you can use pre-outs for some or all (or most) of the channels to send the audio signal to an external amplifier.  Typically when you do that, it is recommended to not also use the power output from the AVR for those channels you are sending to an external amp.  In a surround system, for movies - the LCR does the brunt of the work (and really the center does a lot), and that's where you might want more head room to work with, especially if you're going to run the LCR in full range.  The surround speakers do less work, and need less power in general, and are usually smaller and can't realistically handle full range anyway.  That's not universally true, but is true for the vast majority.  That's why my preliminary thoughts are to run an external 3 channel amp, and let the Marantz handle the other 2 or more channels you intend to hook up.

 

Honestly, just give your AVR a try, be thoughtful and moderate as you increase the volume.  Then strongly consider an upgrade to something like the Marantz 6011, and see how you like it.  Unless you're going to spend big bucks on high end processor + external amps, you probably won't hear a huge difference going from the 6011, to adding an external amp to the 6011.  Unless you really blast the volume on a regular basis and have some measuring equipment.

 

I usually watch movies at a high-ish volume, and often listen to music at a high-ish volume.  Between letting my Yamaha 3070 run all my speakers, or using my Outlaw 5000 to handle 3 or 5 of the channels, I can't tell a difference with my ears. For me it's peace of mind.  I've tried both just to see how the 3070 handled everything, and it does a fine job.

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Really with your system if you have a nice, higher powered Receiver it should be able to handle the center channel and rear surrounds, its the RF-7's that are going to need an extra push to get the most out of them. As long as your Receiver choice has pre-outs for an external amplifier you can add a reasonably priced 2 channel amp for the towers and be done with it, probably the economical way to go. 

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2 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

Really with your system if you have a nice, higher powered Receiver it should be able to handle the center channel and rear surrounds, its the RF-7's that are going to need an extra push to get the most out of them. As long as your Receiver choice has pre-outs for an external amplifier you can add a reasonably priced 2 channel amp for the towers and be done with it, probably the economical way to go. 

This, or a good 3 channel amp for the LCR....the possibilities are endless! 

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Here's what you need to understand.  And I'm basing this on your quantity of threads started:

 

You can ask us as many questions as you'd like.  You can read as many reviews as you'd like.  You're going to get a full spectrum of answers and read a full spectrum of opinions - but none of them are horse doody compared to your own real world applied experiences that you - yourself - are going to have to find out about.

 

Eventually, you just have to start throwing darts at the dart board with the darts you have, and hope that one of them hit a bulls eye.  Take advantage of company return policies, take advantage of money back guarantees, get out there and start evaluating how things sound to your ears.  We can sit here all day and tell you a configuration is set up wrong, but if your ears don't know that - no one should care.

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OK I am just starting

 

Carver AV-405 5 channel power amplifier

$460

Carver AV-405 REBUILT, all new capacitors for long life and brand new sound quality,
8-ohm FTC rated power/ch 100W
4-ohm FTC rated power/ch 150W
2-ohm dynamic power/ch 200W
Center Channel Power 110W
Rear Channel Power 50W
4/8-ohm FTC rated THD 0.1%
Input Impedance (Line) 47 kohms
Rated full power bandwidth 20-22kHz
S/N-IHF A-Weighted,dB >95dB
Dimensions (HxWxD inches) 4.4x19x15

 

Rotel RB-985 five channel amp. 100W x 5. THX Certified!

$400

No fuss five channel amp for the "small" home theater setup. With 100W per channel, the Rotel will sound incredible in the more modest home theater system. Like with any other Rotel amps, it will produce a nice clean sound that really resonates well be it in music mode or movie mode. That is kind of given since it pass the rigorous THX Certification.  

 

Rotel RB-985 5 channel power amplifier

$580

Five channels of amplification, THX certified, 100 watts rms output per channel at 8 Ohms, Frequency response 10 Hz - 80 kHz plus or minus 0.5 dB, harmonic distortion less than 0.03%, input impedance 27 kOhm, damping factor 180,

 

Carver CT-17 5 Channel Pre-Amp/Processor Amplifier

 

*DEALER RECERTIFIED* MARANTZ MM7055 5 Channel Power Amplifier 7055 XLR + RCA ,**

$850

 

Carver AV-405 5 Channel Amplifier (needs repair) - $60 (Everett)

 

Sunfire Cinema Grand Amplifier - $1250 (Bellevue)  Limited production piece, hand signed by Bob Carver. 19" version.

 

$601.00

 

$600.00

 

$777.00

 

$650.00

 

Carver 5 Channel Amplifier AV-405

Rotel RB 985 5 Channel Amplifier - Mint Condition - $350

 

And then there is my very favorite less than 100 miles away

 

 

 Outlaw Model 990&7700 7.1 Stereo with 8 Axiom Speakers - $750 (La Conner) hide this posting

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© craigslist - Map data © OpenStreetMap

(google map)

condition: like new 
make / manufacturer: Outlaw 
model name / number: 990 preamp/7700 power amp
size / dimensions: 16.5"Lx17.5"Wx7"H 

Audiophile quality sound at a very low price. Cost $7500 new! Outstanding audiophile quality with 200Watts per channel, 7.1 surround sound stereo system with 0.03% THD. Your music, movies, and sports will come to life and hear sounds you didn't know existed. Preamp has various types of input connectors, almost anything can be connected and played thru it. Purchased March 2007, I have enjoyed it very much, moving to a much smaller residence. Everything works like new, you will not be disappointed. Bring your favorite music and come audition this audio system, serious inquiries only, price negotiable! I have a pickup and willing to help you transport it a reasonable distance to your location. List of the Axiom speaker models, all simulated Boston cherry color, 1- VP150 center channel, 1 EP500 250W 10" powered subwoofer, 2 Millenia M80 Towers, 4- QS8 surrounds. Includes remote control, speaker stands, cables and premium speaker wire, manuals. Have original receipts to prove cost and ownership. Can answer any questions you may have and provide support to your connection, setup and adjustment efforts. For pictures search models online, Amazon has some of the units listed, has good accurate pictures. Email phone number with reply.

 

The price for all that is $750.  Waiting to hear from him.

 

 

 

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the outlaw is the best amp of the listed ones, but skip the preamp.  It's old tech from 2005, and the tech in the preamp/processor matters.  You at least want to be up to date, and something current will / should last you for several years from a tech perspective.

 

I like the Rotel next on your list.  The Carvers...I can't speak to.  I had a Carver integrated many years ago and it was good to me, but I had better results later with a 1984 NAD 2 channel amp and 

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1 hour ago, The History Kid said:

You can ask us as many questions as you'd like.  You can read as many reviews as you'd like.  You're going to get a full spectrum of answers and read a full spectrum of opinions - but none of them are horse doody compared to your own real world applied experiences that you - yourself - are going to have to find out about.

 

Yeah, I am very aware of that.  And I know that a lot of the questions that I ask don't have answers. I do have things set up now, except that I have JBL Stadium Venues for the towers because I had them around.  And I have played with moving the sub around  and even the center and surrounds, trying to listen critically. Everything that people tell me is taken with the note that it might be wrong because I asked the question the wrong way.  For example, I got some advice about receivers earlier, but the people who gave it to me reasonably assumed that I would know how to handle power.  I am somewhat hamstrung because I don't know how to tweak the receiver I have, and i don't want to spend the time learning if it is going to go away.

 

When I am diving into something new, my philosophy is sort of like a saying I like and that I actually used here earlier today.

 

"A wise man can learn more from a foolish question than a fool can learn from a wise answer." Would you believe that is from Bruce Lee?

 

I have assembled a base of knowledge at some level that may not be accurate, but that will let me learn more readily.

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Try the receiver first. If it isn’t producing the sound levels you require, add an amp.

 

I have purchased about 10 quality receivers over the last 7 years or so. I have also owned about 5 amplifiers from Parasound, Acurus, Outlaw Audio, Emotiva etc. 

 

I have extensive A/B testing with receiver vs. receiver with amp. The majority of the time, I couldn’t tell the difference. I rarely go above -20 l dB though and the upper volume levels is where the difference is more apparent.

 

Try the receiver first. If you can’t make your ears bleed with the power of the receiver, add a true 200/channel amp. 

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OK, I made a decision, and it will be brilliant or a disaster.  I agreed to buy the package that the guy is selling in Craigslist for $750..  Most importantly, it has an Outlaw 7700 amplifier and an Outlaw 990 preamplifier. The 7700 has seven channels rated at 300 watts.  Its actual maximum power consumption is 1800 watts.  I hope that will keep the speakers happy.  The cheapest price I can find for a used one is $1,000, so $750 looks like a pretty good deal.  And the 990 preamplifier seems to sell for about $150, so that makes it even a better deal.  And then the deal also includes a complete set of Axiom speakers: 2 towers, center, 4 surrounds and subwoofer.  He bought it all in 2007, but Axion still sells the same package with a few upgraded models for $6,500.  He said that they are like new and based on my conversation with him, I suspect that they are.  

 

SO now, I either make a second home theater with Axiom speakers or find a way to sell them.  Hmm.  I think I will sell them.  Any suggestions?

 

And now I need to figure out what else I need besides the amplifier.  

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For RF-7 mains you'll want a stout amp that delivers at least 200 watts per channel and can handle low impedances well.  RF-7s have a minimum 2.8 ohm impedance and that's what sucks the power from an average receiver.

 

The Outlaw amp you're looking at should work very well.  Amps don't necessarily ' age' like receivers do.  Get a great amp and as surround technology changes and improves you can simply change your receiver or preamp and keep your main amp.

 

Get a receiver or preamp that has the features you want and as long as it has at least preamp outputs for front main speakers you'll be set.

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On 1/15/2018 at 4:31 PM, vasubandu said:

Aha! You mean this

 

Power Consumption
320 W (SC­LX801)/310 W (SC­LX701)
0.15 W (Stand­by, North American)
0.2 W (Stand­by, Others)
90 W (No­sound)
6 W (HDMI Standby Through)
2.5 W (Network Standby)

 

Now help me out, isn't 320 divided by 9 = 35.5, and 320 divided by 7 = 45.7, and 320 divided by 5 = 64? Those other 440 watts must be for the subwoofer, right?

I have a similar dilemma. My current Pioneer with 250W power supply is 110W 5-channel rated :) on Pioneer.com, but manual states 80W x 2-channel. Personally, I doubt it pushing more than 50W per channel in stereo mode. I want something with more power per channel. After researching options and specs I like Denon x2400 that has a 500W power supply and rated at 95W x 2-channel. They also say Denon is more accurate with numbers when it comes to wattage.

 

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2 hours ago, dimanata2007 said:

I have a similar dilemma. My current Pioneer with 250W power supply is 110W 5-channel rated :) on Pioneer.com, but manual states 80W x 2-channel. Personally, I doubt it pushing more than 50W per channel in stereo mode. I want something with more power per channel. After researching options and specs I like Denon x2400 that has a 500W power supply and rated at 95W x 2-channel. They also say Denon is more accurate with numbers when it comes to wattage.

 

That 110w x 5 is most likely at 6ohms and with only two channels driven.

 

Maybe get something like your Luxman R-117 driving your Chorus IIs?;)

 

You won't find an AVR that can do that, but a quality outboard amp can.:P

 

Bill

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2 hours ago, dimanata2007 said:

After researching options and specs I like Denon x2400 that has a 500W power supply and rated at 95W x 2-channel. They also say Denon is more accurate with numbers when it comes to wattage.

 

Probably close to the same, 50. Maybe 60.

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@dimanata2007 This was explained to me here, but I forget who told me, and I have verified it elsewhere. You need to get the manual and look for maximum power consumption or the equivalent.  That states the maximum power that the amp can draw.  It cannot output more than it draws, so divide that number by the number of channels and you have your real-world answer.

 

For example, the VSX 819H manual says 110 x5.  The manual at page 69 says

 

     Amplifier section Continuous average power output of 80 watts*

     per channel, min., at 8 ohms, from 20 Hz to 20 000 Hz with no

     more than 0.2 %** total harmonic distortion. Front (stereo) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .80 W + 80 W

 

In the column to the right, it says 

 

     Power Requirements . . . . . . . . . AC 120 V, 60 Hz

     Power Consumption. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 250 W

 

And that is the number that counts.  If it is driving 5 channels, it can provide a maximum of 5 watts to each channel if they all are demanding that much or more.

 

If I understand my research correctly, the thing is that all five speakers will never make simultaneous maximum demands.  I am not sure about this, but I suspect that they use some algorithm to come up with a real work maximum.  And I have to say that the lawyer in me is thinking class action lawsuit.  The way they state the power is deceptive in a harmful way because most people are just going to believe it.  That just seems wrong. 

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1 hour ago, willland said:

That 110w x 5 is most likely at 6ohms and with only two channels driven.

 

Maybe get something like your Luxman R-117 driving your Chorus IIs?;)

 

You won't find an AVR that can do that, but a quality outboard amp can.:P

 

Bill

:) Luxman is gone. I needed HT receiver and unfortunately Luxman had only 2 channels and no HDMI. :)

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1 hour ago, The History Kid said:

Probably close to the same, 50. Maybe 60.

But Denon has a 500W power supply vs Pioneer's 250W???

57 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

@dimanata2007 This was explained to me here, but I forget who told me, and I have verified it elsewhere. You need to get the manual and look for maximum power consumption or the equivalent.  That states the maximum power that the amp can draw.  It cannot output more than it draws, so divide that number by the number of channels and you have your real-world answer.

 

For example, the VSX 819H manual says 110 x5.  The manual at page 69 says

 

     Amplifier section Continuous average power output of 80 watts*

     per channel, min., at 8 ohms, from 20 Hz to 20 000 Hz with no

     more than 0.2 %** total harmonic distortion. Front (stereo) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .80 W + 80 W

 

In the column to the right, it says 

 

     Power Requirements . . . . . . . . . AC 120 V, 60 Hz

     Power Consumption. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 250 W

 

And that is the number that counts.  If it is driving 5 channels, it can provide a maximum of 5 watts to each channel if they all are demanding that much or more.

 

If I understand my research correctly, the thing is that all five speakers will never make simultaneous maximum demands.  I am not sure about this, but I suspect that they use some algorithm to come up with a real work maximum.  And I have to say that the lawyer in me is thinking class action lawsuit.  The way they state the power is deceptive in a harmful way because most people are just going to believe it.  That just seems wrong. 

Maybe the lawyer in you can help us all to make same $$$ and get proper equipment? 

 

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Just now, dimanata2007 said:

But Denon has a 500W power supply vs Pioneer's 250W???

Maybe the lawyer in you can help us all to make same $$$ and get proper equipment? 

 

Not necessary.  Do the math.

 

How many channels are you running?  Every channel you add reduces the amount of power going to those speakers.  Factor in distortion, and factor in what kind of power you're dealing with.  500/7 = 71, factor in your distortion, class of power, and the processing, and that number is probably lower.  

 

I've said it before - I'll say it again - anymore, you will not get an AVR that puts out 100 WPC or more for under $2k that includes all of your Dolby Atmos/DTS:X, HDMI 2.2 stuff.  At least not the mainstream name brands.

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2 minutes ago, dimanata2007 said:

Maybe the lawyer in you can help us all to make same $$$ and get proper equipment? 

 

I am doing some research to see if this has been done before.  I am somewhat serious about it.  A lot of those class actions are pretty stupid - like the one over LCD monitor sizes - but this seems to be something that actually matters and actually deceives consumers in ways that count. Not my usual cup of tea, but I know the area and have a few friends who are big hitters nationally in the class action area.

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5 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

I am doing some research to see if this has been done before.  I am somewhat serious about it.  A lot of those class actions are pretty stupid - like the one over LCD monitor sizes - but this seems to be something that actually matters and actually deceives consumers in ways that count. Not my usual cup of tea, but I know the area and have a few friends who are big hitters nationally in the class action area.

They're honestly not doing anything wrong as long as the factual specs are posted.  It's the consumers responsibility to do the research and make an educated purchase - a company is not responsible for the fact that the customer bought into an annotated specification that could be disproven and corrected by just reading the manual or reading the specs online.

 

"This town-car is capable of travelling 160 MPH."

Q: Do you need it to do that?  Does it do that?  Does it matter if it doesn't do that?  How easily can that be disproven? What about how that was determined?

A: Shouldn't.  Probably Not. Maybe. Engine Specs. Probably when the car was going downhill with the wind after it had peaked speed.

And you find all that with simple research.

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