DSP options for your Pro Klipsch Audio

[Turbox]

I've always had passive crossovers for my system, but the more i think about this I am leaning towards the need to go active with digital crossovers. I do have some experience with the Crown XTi series of amplifiers which I like. I use them for my subs, its good clean power. Easy and integrated. These are also good for bi-amping, however once you get beyond that, these wont fit the bill. I do like them because they have the DSP, and amplifiers build in.

 

I've been thinking about an active 3 way or even a 4 way system. I'd be looking for a DSP and amplifier built in. Similar to what Klipsch is advertising on their site with the KDA1000. Does that fit the bill for say a klipsch 4 way system? is it that easy? I have not heard of anyone using them.

 

But I would like to get your opinions on other options. 

[Turbox]

I should also say that I have done some looking on the Crown website. I did find the Crown CDI drivecore 4 way DSP/Amplifier which looks interesting. how much power do you think I need?

 

I have seen the following

4x125 - KDA 500 - Klipsch site

4x150 - Crown CT4150

4x250 - Klipsch KDA1000

4x300 - both Crown CDI drivecore -  I do like this unit...

 

this sounds like lots of power say for say a single horn ie K402/1133...125 Watts?

 

the Crown CT4150 is reasonably priced as well at about $1300.

https://www.avshop.ca/sound-amp-pa-audio-installed-sound-amplifiers/crown-ct4150-comtech-drivecore-4x-150w-amplifier?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIm9GlnPXj2AIVm7jACh3F9AqQEAkYByABEgK4PvD_BwE

[Chris A]

2 hours ago, Turbox said:

Does that fit the bill for say a Klipsch 4 way system? is it that easy? I have not heard of anyone using them.

Virtually all cinema (professional) installations are using active DSP crossovers and EQ.  Mark1101 has used DSP crossovers with his MWM stacks at home, along with a few others here.

 

One of the issues that I've experienced with DSP amplifiers (i.e., the Crown XTi series) is that the amplifiers don't sound very good above subwoofer frequencies.  I actually recommend a separate DSP crossover of good quality like a Xilica XP-4080 or XP-8080 instead of buying the amplifiers built in.   Fidelity will typically be much higher than the DSP PA amplifiers, in my experience, and you'll usually wind up saving money overall--because you probably will only need one DSP crossover plus your DSP subwoofer amplifier.  I have a bi-amped front three and use only one unit--a Xilica XP8080.  Then you can mix and match amplifiers without worrying about DSP crossover filters and EQ, only relative amplifier gain.

 

When you start breaking up the audible frequency bands into 2-4 separately amplified "ways" per surround or stereo channel, the less power that you need.  Remember that you're currently probably throwing away 25%-50% of your current power into the resistive and lossy reactive elements in your passive crossovers.  You will get something like a 2x improvement in effective power to the drivers using DSP crossovers and separate amplifiers--that you might not have experienced yet.  I use 45 watt/channel on each channel of the bi-amped Jubs (15 watts with the First Watt F3 amplifier on the compression drivers), the bi-amped center K-402-MEH, and the surround Cornwalls.   This is plenty for my uses.  Each doubling (or halving) of output power from the means a change of only 3 dB (maximum) of output SPL, if you recall.

 

Chris

[Turbox]

interesting, I should bi amp my Jubilee's using the Crown XTI's I have to see how that sounds, and run a 2 channel setup for a few days to see how it sounds.

 

So if I hear you correctly then, and to summarize your points.

- I don't need a lot of power at all.

- separate the DSP from the AMP.

 

how many separate channels can the XP-4080 or XP-8080 do?

[Chris A]

The XP-4080 has 4 input channels and 8 output channels.  All inputs to outputs are assignable by the user.  The XP-8080 has 8 input channels and 8 output channels with the same I/O assignability.  I use 6 input channels and all 8 output channels for my 5.1 setup (bi-amped L, C, R, then mono-amped SL and SR).  The subs are handled by the XTi-1000s using bridged output, one amp per TH sub (DIY SPUD clones at 1200 w/channel).

 

Chris

[Turbox]

and these have no amplification. then. so it I had 2 channel setup. 4 ways speakers the XP8080 would work for the DSP? and each O/P would go to an amp of some kind.

[Chris A]

Yes, the wiring would be: one input to each stack channel, then four outputs per stack, wired to four amplifier channels (i.e., two stereo amplifiers) per stack. An XP-4080 would do the job for your front left and right stacks, and four stereo amplifiers.

[Turbox]

ok, makes sense then.

 

source pre amp > DSP

DSP 4 outputs to input of 4 amps

Each amp output to one of the respective drivers.

 

your comment above WRT "the amplifiers don't sound very good above subwoofer frequencies", Do you think it is the DSP internal to the amp that is doing that or the amplification side itself? ie the amp.

 

I'm still leaning to an integrated solution. 4x300 - both Crown CDI drivecore. I'm sure it will be better than what I currently have going on...and I get to buy more gear too. 

[Chris A]

The XTi-1000s have a lot of DSP noise (hiss that doesn't change when  the gain control knobs are turned) that shows up on the compression drivers channels (a lot...).  They also seem to have issues with amplifier fidelity at higher frequencies.  You'll hear it when you try them biamping your Jubs. 

 

I won't try to dissuade you from your chosen path.  I was just offering my findings only...zero risk, in other words. 

 

I've found that amplifier noise and poor performance--notably with some PA amplifiers--shows up in extremely efficient speakers...like Jubilees.  When you're in a movie theater, the hiss from the amplifiers begins to subside when you're more than 20 feet from the speakers (and most film projectors used in those theaters had high noise levels, too).  With the switch to digital projectors nowadays, that background noise is now all preamp/amplifier noise.  Otherwise the movie theater sound system should be as quiet as a home hi-fi system.

[Turbox]

of course, I appreciate the feedback which is why I'm here and ask. There are lots of people smarter than I when it comes to this stuff, and people with more experience than I. The thing I don't like about the crown XTI is the fan noise. When I'm watching a good movie(a good movie to me is lots of bass, action, thumping and bumping that makes me move in my seat), then you hit a quiet scene, and all I hear is the dam fans.

 

When I have 5 minutes to myself. I will disconnect it all and bi amp those jubilee's.

[CECAA850]

35 minutes ago, Turbox said:

The thing I don't like about the crown XTI is the fan noise.

You can't put quiet ones in?  I swapped out all my QSC fans and they're virtually inaudible.

[HPower]

Hey Turbox

 

When I final got my Jub clones (2 way) built last year Chris helped me tremendously with setting up my active network... Xilica, XP 4080.

I could not be happier with the results!

 

I am sure a good passive Xover would do "OK", but going active gives you so much more versatility, this would seem very well

suited to your ever evolving sound system.

 

My system is configured as:

 

Sonic Frontiers, Line 1 > Xilica, XP 4080... Active crossover > Classe, CA-150... Bass amp.
                                                                                                         > Triode Labs, 2A3 SET... Hi frequency amp.
                                                                                                         > Crown, XLS 1500... bridged to mono for Subwoofer.

 

Klipsch "Like", DIY Jubilees... 2way.
Lilmike's, Cinema F-20... horn loaded sub.

[ClaudeJ1]

On 1/19/2018 at 9:25 AM, Chris A said:

The XP-4080 has 4 input channels and 8 output channels.  All inputs to outputs are assignable by the user.  The XP-8080 has 8 input channels and 8 output channels with the same I/O assignability.  I use 6 input channels and all 8 output channels for my 5.1 setup (bi-amped L, C, R, then mono-amped SL and SR).  The subs are handled by the XTi-1000s using bridged output, one amp per TH sub (DIY SPUD clones at 1200 w/channel).

 

Chris

I should add that Xilica is a CANADIAN company, so may be a bit easier for you to get since you are not crossing the border with fees, shipping, etc.

[ClaudeJ1]

15 minutes ago, HPower said:

I am sure a good passive Xover would do "OK", but going passive gives you so much more versatility, this would seem very well

suited to your ever evolving sound system.

You meant to say going ACTIVE, not passive, right?

[dtel]

10 hours ago, Turbox said:

The thing I don't like about the crown XTI is the fan noise. When I'm watching a good movie(a good movie to me is lots of bass, action, thumping and bumping that makes me move in my seat), then you hit a quiet scene, and all I hear is the dam fans.

I have the exact same problem, the fan is pretty loud, I was surprised.

 

10 hours ago, CECAA850 said:

You can't put quiet ones in?  I swapped out all my QSC fans and they're virtually inaudible.

It's new so I was worried about voiding any warranty.

I thought about putting another quiet fan on the back over the built in fan and the quiet one could run constantly. This may help the crown fan from coming on as much, it rarely does with music but with movies it's a different thing.

 

[HPower]

37 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You meant to say going ACTIVE, not passive, right?

Thanks Claude... fixed. 

[HPower]

41 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

I should add that Xilica is a CANDIAN company, so may be a bit easier for you to get since you are not crossing the border with fees, shipping, etc.

 

Turbox,

 

Claude has a good point, I picked my XP4080 north of the 49th parallel.

Give me a phone call or PM for details on where not/ and where, to source Xilica.

 

Tom

 

 

[CECAA850]

29 minutes ago, dtel said:

I have the exact same problem, the fan is pretty loud, I was surprised.

 

It's new so I was worried about voiding any warranty.

I thought about putting another quiet fan on the back over the built in fan and the quiet one could run constantly. This may help the crown fan from coming on as much, it rarely does with music but with movies it's a different thing.

 

If you have an issue just put the stock ones back in.   Qsc said that it wouldn't be an issue though.

[dtel]

I need to take the top off and see how it connects, if easy I could do that. I need to try and find out what voltage goes to the fan, it may be on the fan.

 

Problem is the fan would still come on when the thermal sensor sends power, I would rather have it stay on if it moved enough air and was still pretty quiet. I don't know how much air this fan moves, might need to remove it and see if I can get numbers and look it up.

 

I say this because i tried to look up replacement fans and there are a crazy amount of different fans out there.

[Coytee]

if you like Crown, keep in mind they have the K series (K1/K2) that have no fans.  I've got mine (K2's) dialed to about 50% on the gain controls and there is zero discernible hiss.