Klipsch vs. Axiom Audio, Fact or Fiction

[Moosee1955]

I've been around our hobby a long time, and only a few systems made me sit up and say wow. I've been in stores where the salesman would tout how great those speakers are, or that amplifier. But most of the time I just played along. My ears are always listening for Nirvana. Couple of wows come to mind, listenenig to cornerhorns circa 1973, album was roundabout , when the band kicked in after soft intro, my heart jumped! I was only 17 at time don't know if heart could take today. Bottom line its got to make you drool when you hear it, well at least pant!

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[cincymat]

Let us know what you hear when you set them up and have a listen....

[YK Thom]

4 hours ago, vasubandu said:

 

Dang, are you a psychic?  We listened to the Axioms where we picked them up, and I was quite impressed.  It may have helped that they had an Outlaw 7700 amp, but they also had an Outlaw 990 with RCA connections.  It certainly would do the job and look nice.  

 

When I started this I had little interest in music.  I will call a two channel system music because that is what it means to me,  I have however, become interested in a few things about it.  First, I would love to get some speakers that I can open up and figure out. And then develop and try some ideas, and make an open baffle speaker.  So your suggestion is right on.

Right on, glad you liked them. I’m no psychic ( would have rigged a lottery number by now), but I like to consider myself pragmatic and frugal - although my wife translates that as cheap. A nice sounding system in hand is worth two in the bush. You have something you can enjoy now, whilst planning for the future. A half decent AVR will also take care of your two channel music enjoyment during the planning stages. I would consider this acquisition a victory for both yourself and your family.

[vasubandu]

@YK Thom thanks.  I am considering this a huge boon. The guy who sold them was amazing. He kept throwing in everything attached like a nice Opportunity DVD player.  I gave him 800 instead of the 750 he asked. Then he showed us his system for the cabin. A pair of JBL bookshelf speakers that sounded quite nice streaming music with his Schitt Dec. So I told him I was going to get him a little Subwoofer for it to make things more even. Not sure if I should stick with JBL or not. But I do see what an amazing deal this was. 

 

And the thing is, the good enough standard for home theater is lower and different. So this really gives me a free chance to explore music and speakers in general. 

 

I have some crazy speaker ideas. Then again there was another guy who had crazy ideas.  They called him Klipsch. 

[Zen Traveler]

34 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

I have some crazy speaker ideas. Then again there was another guy who had crazy ideas.  They called him Klipsch.

Still trying to figure out your signature--Why not RF-7s? 

[vasubandu]

@Zen Traveler Yeah, why not RF-7s which are the natural and logical match to the RC-7 and RS-7.  I guess because I have not been able to find a good deal on one yet.  And then there was all that discussion about the i versus the ii and iii.  The way some people were talking, it seemed like listening to an RF-7 i would make blood come out of my ears, which made me wonder why it did not bring the whole company down.  I would never get rid of my RC-7 and RS-7 because I like them so much.  And my sense reading between all the lines is that I really want an RF-7 i to match my RC-7 and RS-7.  They were made for each other. And if the ii and iii are really different, then I have to question the match.

 

Now another part of this is just me wanting to try something goofy.  That started when my good friend and local member @jjptkd mentioned to me that he had a pair of Forte ii that I could use for LR instead of RF-7.  And what whole idea had never occurred to me.  And then he contacted me about a pair of RF-5 instead of RF-7, and his deal included a pair of RC-7.  And as far as I am concerned, you could never have too many RC-7.  When we talked, he told me that he had swapped the tweeters and crossovers between the RC-7 and the RC-5, so the RC-5 are essentially vertical RC-7, and then I jumped all over it.  My purchase of the Axioms has slowed me down a bit, but I still hope I can get him money in time to grab those.  I have read that it is ideal to have the same speakers for LCR, and this would give me that in my favorite speaker ever. 

 

But I still would like to see how things work with the RF-7.  And that leads me to ask myself if I could or should swap the tweeters with RC-7, but they seem to be identical.  So as far as I can tell, the RF-7 is just a vertical RC-7 with 10 inch woofers and same tweeters.  And if that is true, then I should love them to pieces.  I very well may end up finding that the RF-7 is the perfect speakers.

 

But wait.  There is the CF-4, which I have never heard but already put in my will.  Love at first sight.  It has 2 12-inch woofers, and then has a 2-inch Tractrix horn tweeter Aluminum diaphram.  That sounds like a step down from the quality of the tweeter on the RC-7, but it is bigger.  So can I find a 2-inch magnetically shielded, titanium diaphragm compression driver like the 1.75 inch in the RC-7.  I still have not figured out where to get a complete list of available Klipsch parts, and I am thinking that I would want Klipsch parts.

 

If all of this seems like a disorganized jumble of contradictory ideas, it is.  Welcome to my life.  That is just the way that my brain works, and i have made my peace with it.  Fortunately, I have an uncanny memory, so it is not hard to pick up where I left off, and I have a history of seeing connections that other people don't.  So while I considering all these things, I am also thinking about amplifiers, the acoustic effect of adding a rug to the room, whether I can achieve optimum speaker placement in the area I have allocated, whether to use all the surrounds I just got for a 9.2 system or try 7.2.2. and what speakers to try for Atmos.  So year is is a big jumble and a big mess, but it all seems relevant so I just press on. No wonder I never sleep.

[Zen Traveler]

1 minute ago, vasubandu said:

 

The way some people were talking, it seemed like listening to an RF-7 i would make blood come out of my ears, which made me wonder why it did not bring the whole company down. 

I spoke to why folks claimed that over on the Klipsch thread at AVS--Internet opinions seemed to influence others to the point that they actually claimed to witness it themselves while forgetting they posted earlier having never heard original RF-7s. Btw, not only did it not bring the company down they reintroduced them because of their success. 

1 minute ago, vasubandu said:

 

I would never get rid of my RC-7 and RS-7 because I like them so much.  And my sense reading between all the lines is that I really want an RF-7 i to match my RC-7 and RS-7. 

I am the same way except I went and auditioned the alternatives at the time.

1 minute ago, vasubandu said:

 

They were made for each other. And if the ii and iii are really different, then I have to question the match.

This really is the bang-for-your buck question and I wondered the same thing. Dunno.

[Zen Traveler]

9 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

And as far as I am concerned, you could never have too many RC-7. 

Actually, I do have too many RC-7.  I have an extra one sitting in my hallway now that I'm not planning on getting rid of.

[vasubandu]

Thanks, @Zen Traveler. I appreciate the thoughts.  By the way, I notice that you are using RB-75 surrounds, RB 5 ii height speakers, and Klipsch 12 and 15 subwoofers.

 

Have you looked at the RS-7?  Monsters. They weigh about 25 points apiece and have 8 inch woofers.  I love them because I can tell they are there when they show up.  I know the RB-75 have an 8 inch woofer too, but I wonder of you might find the RS-7 better?  When they are priced right, they always seem to be $400.  Have to wait and look though.

 

On your height speakers, I have been researching Atmos to death, and those in the know seem to all agree that ceiling speakers are the only real option.  I found some amazing deals on the higher end Klipsch speakers - well under 50% of the list price.  If you want to to dig them up let me know.

 

I am curious what you think of the Klipsch subwoofers.  I had a Paradigm SW2200 and replaced it with an SVS PB2 Plus.  What massive difference, and my sub was made in 2002.  DO you think you get what you want, or would you prefer more?  People seem to swear by SVS, and when you can find the older stuff, it is pretty cheap.

 

Thanks again for your post.  You make a lot of sense.

 

 

 

[wvu80]

24 minutes ago, vasubandu said:

But wait.  There is the CF-4, which I have never heard but already put in my will.  Love at first sight.  It has 2 12-inch woofers, and then has a 2-inch Tractrix horn tweeter Aluminum diaphram.  That sounds like a step down from the quality of the tweeter on the RC-7, but it is bigger.  So can I find a 2-inch magnetically shielded, titanium diaphragm compression driver like the 1.75 inch in the RC-7. 

We haven't talked about the CF-4, but I think you would like it.  Big speaker, big sound.  I modded mine and with a sub, they sound better than my La Scalas, better than my Khorns. 

 

The problem is they were only made three years, 94-95 and 96 so they are hard to find.  If you can find the CF-3 it also has a legendary reputation.  The CF-2 and CF-1, not so much.

[vasubandu]

16 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

Actually, I do have too many RC-7.  I have an extra one sitting in my hallway now that I'm not planning on getting rid of.

 

You could send it to me for safekeeping, but I cannot guarantee that I will have time if you want me to send it back.  But maybe it would be enough to know that it is happy with all of  of its RC-7 friends.

[vasubandu]

3 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

The problem is they were only made three years, 94-95 and 96 so they are hard to find.  If you can find the CF-3 it also has a legendary reputation.  The CF-2 and CF-1, not so much.

 

Bob Crites told me that my problem would be spare parts.  He said that he cannot even get any.

 

I have plenty of leads on CF-3.  If you are telling me that they are worthy, then I will chase a few down.

 

And @wvu80 you know I have a special place in my heart for advice from you.

[garyrc]

On 1/20/2018 at 2:51 PM, vasubandu said:

 

 And then develop and try some ideas, and make an open baffle speaker. 

 

An open baffle speaker?  Why?  I'm baffled. 

 

3 hours ago, vasubandu said:

If all of this seems like a disorganized jumble of contradictory ideas, it is.  Welcome to my life.  That is just the way that my brain works, and i have made my peace with it.  Fortunately, I have an uncanny memory, so it is not hard to pick up where I left off, and I have a history of seeing connections that other people don't.  ...   So year is is a big jumble and a big mess, but it all seems relevant so I just press on.  No wonder I never sleep.

 

I've been meaning to ask, how much coffee do you drink?  I can't say what you've been whirling like over the last many days, because we aren't supposed to discuss religion on the forum.

 

I've been in the same condition.  Specifically, it was when I began as an audio hobbyist.  I, too have an uncanny memory.  I remember experimenting with my parents' open baffle console radio, hooking its 12" speaker up to the Arkay 12 watt, mono, Williamson tube amp I had built from a kit.  Actually, it had a bit of a baffle, but no back at all.  I put the console partway into a corner, on an angle to the walls (more like 30 degrees instead of facing out at the normal 45 for a "corner speaker").  I thought I needed some absorption in the cabinet (Boy's Life told me that), so I threw in some bath towels, and included a puffy timpani beater stick at what, intuitively, looked like just the right angle, and it sounded wonderful!  I called a friend, and said, I think I've invented the perfect [open] baffle!  He came right over.  We plaid the same (mono) Lp record over and over [the Westminster Classical Sampler, famous for the cover photo of the dreamy woman with the decolletage].  Then we tried a different record ads looked at each other, "Wait -- that doesn't sound so good!"  And neither did any other record we tried.  They all sounded quite ordinary.  So ... always try a variety of listening material.  The semi-open baffle did have a diffuse effect, and a sense of the character of the room, unlike the small sealed boxes [AR, etc.] that seemed all the rage, at the time. There followed about 7 or 8 years of frenetic spinning on my part: Karlson enclosure with JBL D130, stereo pair of JBL 030 in C34 enclosures, borrowed speakers, etc.  Then, a new friend I met in college said he had been to Berkeley Custom Electronics where he heard speakers that seemed to fill the room, and had a great stereo effect, "free floating," he said -- Klipschorns.  It only took me about 16 years to save up for them,  listening to everything else along the way.  I never found their equal (haven't heard the Kilpsch Jubilees).  The K-horns have the same free floating feeling that my semi-open back "invention" had, but without the modulation (and other) distortion that a speaker that needs a wide excursion will probably have, and to which any sub that isn't horn loaded may be prone.

 

Abigail Adams said she considered the ability to hold two contradictory ideas in the mind at the same time, and give them both thorough consideration, to be a sign of intelligence.

 

 

Arkay 12 watt, mono, Williamson, integrated tube amp

[vasubandu]

@garyrc that is a wonderful story and completely the opposite of me.  I would spend my time designing the perfect speaker and never do anything with it. As soon as I tried to do something like that, disaster would strike. So I was always the guy who knew stuff but did not do much. It made me a wonderful student except that my mind was always going a million miles an hour on a million subjects.  It always made sense to me, and I got great grades, but I never tried or worked hard.  College was more of the same, but as I got to higher levels in any subject, they started to require organization and ordered thought. Astronomy experiments conducted over time or archaeology dis with toothbrushes. So I probably has a dozen declared majors, but always moved on.  If I had not found out that I already had completed a major that was discontinued the year after I started I don't know what I would have done.

 

And that led to law school which was about as much fun as I have had in my life.  The law is a whole bunch of different rules that may or may not apply and a purely mental exercise.  I never took many notes at any level, but after a week of law school, I realized that everything I had learned was in my notes and not my head.  So I did not take another note.  I sat in class and thought about what the professor was saying.  They all thought I was freak or some kind of cheater, but I did extremely well, so it worked.  

 

And then 4 years ago, our younger son was having problems in school, and they said they thought he had ADHD. I thought not, but we had him evaluated.  And half way through the process, the psychologist looked at me and said, "Have you ever been evaluated?"  And I looked over my shoulder to see who she was talking to. When I realized it was me, I asked her is she was serious, I mean me?  And she just said, "You need to get yourself checked."  So I did, and they said that I have ADHD, have it real bad.  And everyone I tell says, "I could have told you that," to which I respond, "Then why the hell didn't you?"

 

The ADHD meds are amazing. I am on a high dose, but would prefer higher.  If I sit down to work on something, I will look up distracted two hours later instead of five minutes later.  They have been a Godsend.  But they have not changed the way my brain works. Fortunately, my wife seems to be able to live with this.  We have been married 30 years.  But I am a challenge for her.  You just never know know what is going on in my head.

 

I am worst or best when I find something new, like this whole audio thing. I mean sound is energy waves, and light is energy waves.  But are they the same thing?  Light has a dual essence - it is both particle and wave at the same time.  Is sound a particle?  If I went fast enough in a spaceship and shone a light behind me so that waves were stretched out, enough, would the light become sound, and if it did, what would it sound like?  A black surface reflects no light. Is there a black for sound? All of these a crazy, absurd questions, but if I could answer them, I would have a more comprehensive understanding of things.  And a lot of fun figuring them out. And since the entire purpose of the exercise is for me to find out, I am not too terribly concerned with what other people think.

 

On the other hand, this mad approach has proven very useful in the law because I see things that others do not, and that can translate into results.  For the rest of things, I really have had only one major success with LED lights, but that was a lot of fun, and it felt good to have a crazy idea validated.  

 

So help me out with this one.  Speakers have boxes as I understand it to contain the sound that is emitted towards the back of the speaker.  If it bounces off something, all sorts of bad things happen.  Except when speakers are great (planar) because nothing contains the back sound.  But they have to be a certain distance from a wall. What the heck?  SO a back wall or no back wall is good.  There must be some magic to that distance, but I have not figured it out yet.

 

My ultimate goal in all this is to figure out a speaker that cannot be distinguished  from the actual event and then to figure out an input device to digitally create sounds that are perceived as actual event sounds.  That shouldn't be too hard.

[Zen Traveler]

17 hours ago, vasubandu said:

Have you looked at the RS-7?  Monsters. They weigh about 25 points apiece and have 8 inch woofers.  I love them because I can tell they are there when they show up.

I have a pair of those and two sets of RS-3s.

17 hours ago, vasubandu said:

I know the RB-75 have an 8 inch woofer too, but I wonder of you might find the RS-7 better?  When they are priced right, they always seem to be $400.  Have to wait and look though

Nope. I convert the rear channels from 5.1 to 7.1 using Dolby PLIIz and prefer the direct radiating speakers because I sit between the Side Surrounds. I also listen to a lot of Multichannel music.

 

17 hours ago, vasubandu said:

I am curious what you think of the Klipsch subwoofers.

The RSW-15 and RSW-12 are earlier models that get good reviews--Dunno about the more current ones except what I read about them on the internet. 

[garyrc]

Hi Vasubanu, 

 

IMO, there are many ways to function well in this world.   You have found a field that is almost "purely a mental exercise" that fits your characteristics well.  The other step you have taken is, as you said in an earlier post, you have made your peace with it.  I hope you know I intended no offense in my earlier post.  While I don't think I have ADHD (but neither did you), I share some characteristics with you, characteristics that my friends don't have.

 

On 1/22/2018 at 1:40 AM, vasubandu said:

@garyrc that is a wonderful story and completely the opposite of me.  I would spend my time designing the perfect speaker and never do anything with it. As soon as I tried to do something like that, disaster would strike. So I was always the guy who knew stuff but did not do much. It made me a wonderful student except that my mind was always going a million miles an hour on a million subjects.  It always made sense to me, and I got great grades, but I never tried or worked hard.  College was more of the same, but as I got to higher levels in any subject, they started to require organization and ordered thought

 

I was that guy, too.  People used to call me "Radar O'Reilly,"   Or "the one who knows."   With the advent of Google, I felt less useful.   I felt that I had many tracks going in my head, like one of those studio  recorders that spread 16 tracks over a 2" wide tape.  Each track had its own volume control, so I could turn down all tracks but one (or, two or three), especially if someone spoke to me.  When I first met my wife (of 43 happy years together) she thought it a bit odd that I would sometimes say, "Just a minute, I have to finish a thought," but she and I both accepted it.  Now that I'm older, the volume controls don't work as well, but I'm O.K. with that, except for the insomnia.

 

On 1/22/2018 at 1:40 AM, vasubandu said:

 ... And that led to law school which was about as much fun as I have had in my life.  The law is a whole bunch of different rules that may or may not apply and a purely mental exercise.  I never took many notes at any level, but after a week of law school, I realized that everything I had learned was in my notes and not my head.  So I did not take another note.  I sat in class and thought about what the professor was saying.  They all thought I was freak or some kind of cheater, but I did extremely well, so it worked.  

 

There was a guy in a math class who did his knitting during the lectures.  The professor urged him to take notes, but he declined, saying, with a warm smile, "I never take notes."  He had no more background in the subject than the other students.  He got the top grade on every test.

 

On 1/22/2018 at 1:40 AM, vasubandu said:

The ADHD meds are amazing. I am on a high dose, but would prefer higher.  If I sit down to work on something, I will look up distracted two hours later instead of five minutes later.  They have been a Godsend.  But they have not changed the way my brain works.

 

Two hours -- not bad ! 

 

On 1/22/2018 at 1:40 AM, vasubandu said:

If I went fast enough in a spaceship and shone a light behind me so that waves were stretched out, enough, would the light become sound, and if it did, what would it sound like?  A black surface reflects no light. Is there a black for sound? All of these a crazy, absurd questions, but if I could answer them, I would have a more comprehensive understanding of things.  And a lot of fun figuring them out. And since the entire purpose of the exercise is for me to find out, I am not too terribly concerned with what other people think.

 

Those remind me of some of Einstein's questions.  Of course, I don't know the answers, but it's fun to speculate.  I'm not sure the waves would stretch out, but a star with sufficient gravity will cause light beams to bend.  Perhaps the black for sound would be a vacuum, like some places in space.  But, given that space isn't nearly as empty as we thought, with dark matter, and all ...

[vasubandu]

On 1/22/2018 at 2:10 PM, Zen Traveler said:

I convert the rear channels from 5.1 to 7.1

 

Second reference to this I have seen.  Will have to look into it.

[garyrc]

On 1/22/2018 at 2:10 PM, Zen Traveler said:

The RSW-15 and RSW-12 are earlier models that get good reviews--Dunno about the more current ones except what I read about them on the internet.

 

I have a RSW-15.  It does well down to 30Hz according to REW and a calibrated mic, and down to 20 Hz according to Stereophile test tones as measured by a Radio Shack meter.  Even with REW, its bass extension (attenuated bass) reaches to 24 Hz.

 

It sounds quite powerful.

 

Its bass is not as clean and tight as that of the Klipschorns it works with.  This has made me consider a DIY horn loaded subwoofer.  Search the forum, and you will find some info on them.  Horn loaded subs need to be quite large.  Somewhere on the forum there is one almost ceiling height standing in a corner.

[vasubandu]

11 minutes ago, garyrc said:

I would sometimes say, "Just a minute, I have to finish a thought,"

 

I am going to try  this.  Only 30 years, but worth a try.

 

I have answered the light/sound wave question.  They are different types so they do not convert.  Light passes through a vacuum, but sound requires a medium.  Still don't know what happens when the bandwidth crosses, but that is what tomorrow is for.

[vasubandu]

1 minute ago, garyrc said:

a DIY horn loaded subwoofer

 

I just had a conversation with a guy about a horn loaded subwoofer. I think he was going to make one rather than had made one but I will check.  I really like my subwoofer from 40 to 200 Hz.