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mopardave

Super Heresy project

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Ok, finally got the xo's out of the home brew CW's.  I need to double check with some of you guys to make sure they are correct B xo for the Supers.    These have the squawker on tap 3 and the tweet on 4.    Take a look at the pics and see if i have all the correct components here.  These will be going in later tonight when i get some time.    Thanks

IMG_0404.JPG

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Should be enough to see whats going on here.   Using K77, K55m and Eminence Delta  Pro 12A woofer's.    What do ya think?

IMG_0394.JPG

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well, xo's are installed and now listening to some music.    First listen was not impressive at all.   way too much mid and not enough bass.  I discovered I high gain switch on back of tube amp turned on. I switched it off and played some base heavy music thru them for an hour. A little better. Maybe the woofer needs some breaking in?   It sounds much better, but still sounds like the mids are a little hot and hollow sounding at high volume 100db.    Using musicaps, a 2.0 hovland (yellow) on the tweet and a 3.9(black) between the input post and the #5 on the autoformer.   I have a couple 2.0 400v i can replace the 3.9 400v with.   Which one should i have in place for these super's?   Does it really matter?

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OK, first of all, using the two 2.0uf in place of the 3.9uf is a waste of time.  The delta is negligible and isn't going to get you anything.  Yes, I think the woofer could probably use a bit of break-in.  And lastly, I'm not sure what you were expecting relative to bass response?  I'm pretty sure that Claude's initial description of the Super Heresy output  (as well as my own experience) was that there would be slightly decreased deeper bass, but a definite improvement in mid bass response.  And you are also pushing a Heresy box to 100db.....

 

@ClaudeJ1

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ooops!   I had the + speaker leads plugged into the 4ohm jacks on the back of my tube amp.   Thought the pro 12's were 4ohm,   nope,  they are 8 ohm.   Now plugged into 8 ohm jacks and figured out the high gain switch turned on at low volume sounds good, but may need to be switched off at high volume.    Turned them up to 105db and they sounded very clean.   Yeah, was expecting more low bass and it seems there might be a little more on the bottom.     Still playing and letting the pro 12's wear in a bit.   I will leave all the caps/xo alone for now.  just gonna listen for a while.    Thanks for your help.

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What i ment was to replace the 3.9 with a 2.0, but looks like thats best with a 4.0 anyway.

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8 hours ago, mopardave said:

well, xo's are installed and now listening to some music.    First listen was not impressive at all.   way too much mid and not enough bass.  I discovered I high gain switch on back of tube amp turned on. I switched it off and played some base heavy music thru them for an hour. A little better. Maybe the woofer needs some breaking in?   It sounds much better, but still sounds like the mids are a little hot and hollow sounding at high volume 100db.    Using musicaps, a 2.0 hovland (yellow) on the tweet and a 3.9(black) between the input post and the #5 on the autoformer.   I have a couple 2.0 400v i can replace the 3.9 400v with.   Which one should i have in place for these super's?   Does it really matter?

The EV mids may be a bit hotter than the Atlas, so you may need to lower the tap and use 1/2 the capacitance. I also want to remind you that the bass is VERY room and Placement dependent. This is why the port is in the rear. Also, tubes are not the best choice for bass in a speaker, below 100 hz.. Saul Marantz himself told me this when I met him years ago...........and you woofer choke loses about 2 db vs. a Klipsch B network. You can't use something DIFFERENT and expect the same results. You need an iron core in there, not an air core.

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I had them stacked in a corner about 1' out on first listen.   Ran about an hour like this at 80-105db.   I then put them in opposite corners about 10' apart and ran them the rest of the day at 60-80db and they seemed to be loosening up and coming around now to me.      They are in a very small room(computer room) so this the best i can do for now as placement is a concern.  Mids are on tap 3 so which tap would i put them on if need be?      Had the same experience with my CW's on first listen.   All mid horn and very little bass.   Sounded horrible, like someone singing thru a bull horn.  Ran them a while and they too started coming around and sounding very nice.    They are still the best sounding speakers i have ever listened to, besides the Khorn.

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The woofers need break in time for sure, looks nice though, good job on the build! 

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4 hours ago, mopardave said:

I had them stacked in a corner about 1' out on first listen.   Ran about an hour like this at 80-105db.   I then put them in opposite corners about 10' apart and ran them the rest of the day at 60-80db and they seemed to be loosening up and coming around now to me.      They are in a very small room(computer room) so this the best i can do for now as placement is a concern.  Mids are on tap 3 so which tap would i put them on if need be?      Had the same experience with my CW's on first listen.   All mid horn and very little bass.   Sounded horrible, like someone singing thru a bull horn.  Ran them a while and they too started coming around and sounding very nice.    They are still the best sounding speakers i have ever listened to, besides the Khorn.

I still think the high DCR of your woofer coil is thinning out the bass by at least 3 db. I have some extra Klipsch ones, I think, if you are interested in picking them up. I'll trade you for a six pack of craft stout beer! LOL. Let me make sure I have them in my "miscellaneous Klipsch parts" box.

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LOL!.   Thanks for the offer, but i'll give these some time.   At this point there just back ground music for the computer room.   May have bigger plans for them in the future.   What do you think of the 2.0 hovland caps i have on the tweets?    Are they correct for the supers?

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MOPARDAVE: The most frustrating aspect of my Super Heresy modification has been the tendency for the Majority of the people thinking about or actually DOING the modification is to change things from the original recipe. Some guys want to try woofers they "happen to have laying around" instead of the K-42.

 

Different is not the same. In your case,  having an Air Core Choke on a woofer section is NOT common practice for a reason. Klipsch uses Iron Core on All woofer sections in Heritage line because of the lossy nature of Air Core. I know of no manufacturer that uses an air core choke on a Woofer. In fact many use a Toroid on a Subwoofer for the least amount of losses at a high Inductance value.

 

But you insist on using one in your non Klipsch network, then complain about the thin bass and subsequently assign the blame elsewhere. Then I offer a solution to your problem and you don't think it's important enough to do it right. It's a question of BALANCE, and it's more delicate than you think.

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There are many that use aircore  coils for woofers. They just become larger and more expensive than iron core for a given inductance and resistance. 2.5 mH is not that large either so a breif look at parts express going from 18 and 16 AWG what ever that is in mm2 air ( 0.9 ohm and 0.45 ohm) drops to  0.3 and 0.15 ohm). Try to measure the losses...

I have a pile of woofers and various 2.5mH coils, if I just could find my Dayton Woofer tester :) 

I could try measure the accoustic changes,. Going from 1 ohm to close to 0 should be possible to measure.

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Ok, i understand now. When claudej1 offered up  some coils, I thought he was referring to voive coils in the woofers.   So, are you saying these air core coils were not correct for the CW's i took them from either?   I took guidance from this site when i built them some 16ys ago now.  Not only was it a B xo that should of been a B3 for those CW components, but also wrong coils.   Those CW's should sound really good when i get the new Crites b3's in them.  They did sound good with the B xo in them though, surprisingly enough.     Ok,   gonna order up some brand new coils from parts express. What coils should i order?       Thanks guys

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