R-26F/R-25C/R-14S/R-12SW Crossover?

[Johnmiller2020]

I just purchased the speakers mentioned in the title for a home theater setup. I will be using it mainly for movies/games and have a pioneer elite VSX-LX302 receiver.

 

i ran through the MCACC calibration and it set my front R-26F to large and others to small with 100Hz crossover. It seems a little heavy on the bass with this setting and thought I would change the R-26F to small but I can only set one crossover setting for all speakers. If I keep it at 100Hz, is it even worth having the floor standing R-26F speakers? Or would I have been better suited with bookshelf speakers? Any help with crossover or bass knob settings would be greatly appreciated!

 

R-26F = 38Hz - 24kHz

R-25C = 82Hz - 24kHz

R-14S = 83Hz - 24kHz

R-12SW = 29Hz - 120Hz

Edited January 22, 2018 by Johnmiller2020
Word

[dimanata2007]

I'm a newbie and probably not a real audiophile, so take my opinion with a grain of salt.

I know that everyone suggests to cross frequency at 80Hz or above for all speakers no matter how capable they are and that lowers the load on the amp and smooths the sound and ppl with much more capable and sophisticated systems are following this rule and I'm sure those systems sound absolutely fantastic. However, imo my old set up sounded fuller and more natural when fronts and center were set to full and my sub was set to sub+ .

I couldn't set crossover for fronts, center and surrounds separately with my Pioneer,  so I got a Denon. Audyssey set my fronts to Full (I changed it to Small and crossed them at 40 Hz), center to small 60Hz and surrounds to small 150Hz (that's seems too high to me, but I haven't changed it yet) and the set up sounds better, more natural vs when I'v tried to cross all speakers at 80Hz. 

Again, take my opinion with caution, but if I were you, I would try to set your fronts as Full and set the Sub as "Sub+" and cross the center and surrounds at 100Hz, since you can't go 80Hz.

[The History Kid]

39 minutes ago, Johnmiller2020 said:

I just purchased the speakers mentioned in the title for a home theater setup. I will be using it mainly for movies/games and have a pioneer elite VSX-LX302 receiver.

 

i ran through the MCACC calibration and it set my front R-26F to large and others to small with 100Hz crossover. It seems a little heavy on the bass with this setting and thought I would change the R-26F to small but I can only set one crossover setting for all speakers. If I keep it at 100Hz, is it even worth having the floor standing R-26F speakers? Or would I have been better suited with bookshelf speakers? Any help with crossover or bass knob settings would be greatly appreciated!

 

R-26F = 38Hz - 24kHz

R-25C = 82Hz - 24kHz

R-14S = 83Hz - 24kHz

R-12SW = 29Hz - 120Hz

Try running them at 80 Hz, and see what MCACC set for your EQ at 80 Hz.  You might just have an issue with tone control, which is a simple fix.  Boomy bass though, is usually a culprit of the sub, and you might just have bad configs on the sub amp.  What is the sub crossing at?  You should make sure it's 80 Hz on the AVR, and turn the XO on the sub all the way up.  Set volume at about half and mess with it accordingly.

[Johnmiller2020]

3 hours ago, The History Kid said:

Try running them at 80 Hz, and see what MCACC set for your EQ at 80 Hz.  You might just have an issue with tone control, which is a simple fix.  Boomy bass though, is usually a culprit of the sub, and you might just have bad configs on the sub amp.  What is the sub crossing at?  You should make sure it's 80 Hz on the AVR, and turn the XO on the sub all the way up.  Set volume at about half and mess with it accordingly.

I was going to try XO at 80 but wasn’t sure since it was so close to the low range of the center and the surrounds.

 

By volume on the sub, are you referring to the gain knob on the back of the sub? and the XO knob on the sub all the way up?

 

i don’t see much under MCACC EQ besides frequency response for each channel and adjustments between +-12 db for different frequencies. I’ll have to read up a bit on that before changing anything. Everything looks to be 0db. 

 

is there a good way to test after making these changes if I’m cutting anything off or certain audio files I can play to test the setup?

[The History Kid]

Yeah - adjust those settings on the sub and drop the sub's XO on the AVR to 80.  You can try running pink noise through it, but generally I just advise listening to your primary music or movies to decide.

[Johnmiller2020]

49 minutes ago, The History Kid said:

Yeah - adjust those settings on the sub and drop the sub's XO on the AVR to 80.  You can try running pink noise through it, but generally I just advise listening to your primary music or movies to decide.

That’s what my knob settings on the sub are already. XO set to 80Hz for everything (I only see one XO setting for all speakers/sub) you think the center/surrounds are ok at 80Hz since the frequency reaponse for them is 83Hz - 24kHz? The MCACC suggested 100 but I hate setting it at 100 since I have the towers that can handle more than the center/surround at 38Hz.  

[The History Kid]

4 minutes ago, Johnmiller2020 said:

That’s what my knob settings on the sub are already. XO set to 80Hz for everything (I only see one XO setting for all speakers/sub) you think the center/surrounds are ok at 80Hz since the frequency reaponse for them is 83Hz - 24kHz? The MCACC suggested 100 but I hate setting it at 100 since I have the towers that can handle more than the center/surround at 38Hz.  

They don't handle anything WELL below 60 Hz or there about - your towers don't.  I'd have the towers at 80, and the rest at 100.  Turn the Xo on the sub all the way up though...just in case you have something funny going on.  Your AVR will only send 80 to it anyway.  What's your gain set to?

[Johnmiller2020]

13 minutes ago, The History Kid said:

They don't handle anything WELL below 60 Hz or there about - your towers don't.  I'd have the towers at 80, and the rest at 100.  Turn the Xo on the sub all the way up though...just in case you have something funny going on.  Your AVR will only send 80 to it anyway.  What's your gain set to?

I would prefer to have the towers at 80 and the rest at 100 but my AVR only lets me set one XO for all channels with one setting. That’s my dilemma. XO on the sub is turned all the way up. Gain is set halfway. The sub level is set to +4.0 db on the AVR based on the MCACC calibration

[The History Kid]

5 minutes ago, Johnmiller2020 said:

I would prefer to have the towers at 80 and the rest at 100 but my AVR only lets me set one XO for all channels with one setting. That’s my dilemma. 

I understand now.

 

Just to be sure, none of your speakers are set to large are they?

[Johnmiller2020]

2 minutes ago, The History Kid said:

I understand now.

 

Just to be sure, none of your speakers are set to large are they?

Nope. All set to small with 80Hz XO now. Sounds pretty great now just a little bassy. Like a lot of constant bass coming out. The bass/treble are set to 0db. Gain halfway. When would you adjust the gain VS. when would you adjust the level of the subwoofer?

[The History Kid]

I can't seem to find a copy of the advanced manual anywhere online that isn't behind a pay wall or a registration block.  There has to be a way to set those speakers individually, or at least by pair.  No manufacturer can seriously market a device with a single dimensional EQ like that.

[Johnmiller2020]

11 minutes ago, The History Kid said:

I can't seem to find a copy of the advanced manual anywhere online that isn't behind a pay wall or a registration block.  There has to be a way to set those speakers individually, or at least by pair.  No manufacturer can seriously market a device with a single dimensional EQ like that.

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/Home/lx302_advance-english.pdf

Edited January 23, 2018 by Johnmiller2020

[The History Kid]

6 minutes ago, Johnmiller2020 said:

https://www.pioneerelectronics.com/ephox/StaticFiles/PUSA/Files/Home/lx302_advance-english.pdf

Wow.

 

Well that's dumb.

 

The R-12SW and R-10SW are known for a bit of an issue with muddy bass - they're just not built at all like the higher end.  It might be a flaw of the sub.  Have you tried adjusting the phase to 180?

[Johnmiller2020]

2 minutes ago, The History Kid said:

Have you tried adjusting the phase to 180?

No I wasn’t exactly sure what that was for. Still kind of a novice.

[The History Kid]

16 minutes ago, Johnmiller2020 said:

No I wasn’t exactly sure what that was for. Still kind of a novice.

That's about the last thing I'd say to try, outside of moving the sub around and seeing if any one location is better than another.  Sub crawls are your biggest asset against boominess, but some subs are just muddy.

[Johnmiller2020]

42 minutes ago, The History Kid said:

That's about the last thing I'd say to try, outside of moving the sub around and seeing if any one location is better than another.  Sub crawls are your biggest asset against boominess, but some subs are just muddy.

Ok thanks for all the input. I’ll play around with things. I read somewhere that, as a rule of thumb, the crossover should be based on the mains L/R more than the center/surround. Since the THX standard is 80Hz I’m leaving it there for now since it sounds good besides the bass being a little muddy. It’s most likely either the placement, or possibly the delays/distance setting? I couldn’t tell much of a difference with the phase switch since I was standing right by it to switch it,  or since I just moved in to a new house with hardwood floor and don’t have a rug down yet it’s a little echo-y so that most likely isn’t helping either. 

[RoboKlipsch]

Excellent discussion and advice.  

Nothing wrong with 100hz co.  I tend to use it based upon measuring my systems and knowing that the fronts vs subs in that range favor the subs.

 

All speakers set to small always imo.

 

Placement of the subs determines if theres too much bass in certain frequencies known as modes.  Move them out from the walls a bit if too boomy.

 

Floorstanding speakers have some advantages making them superior to bookshelf speakers in many cases.  Yet your point is correct that you could use bookshelf speakers with a similar result.

 

I once had r28fs and switched to rp160ms for example.  But for now theres no need for you to switch....as I said there are many advatages I wont go into unless you really want to hear it ☺.

 

Your thought process is logical and well considered imo.

[Johnmiller2020]

1 hour ago, RoboKlipsch said:

 

I once had r28fs and switched to rp160ms for example.  But for now theres no need for you to switch....as I said there are many advatages I wont go into unless you really want to hear it ☺.

I would love to hear why you switched. I guess RP’s are a class above the R’s could be the reason but would like to know more. I’d like to hear your thoughts on advantages of floorstanding speakers as well. If there are clear advantages over bookshelf’s even at 80/100 Hz XO and not utilizing the full range I’ll feel better about my purchase at least 🙂

[The History Kid]

There are certain bookshelf speakers that can put candles to floorstanders, but floor standers have many advantages as well.  It's more of an application thing than anything else.

 

As for the R and RP - correct.  The R series is a slightly tuned Icon speaker with copper coloring.  The RP series is what used to be just called Reference.

[RoboKlipsch]

10 hours ago, Johnmiller2020 said:

I would love to hear why you switched. I guess RP’s are a class above the R’s could be the reason but would like to know more. I’d like to hear your thoughts on advantages of floorstanding speakers as well. If there are clear advantages over bookshelf’s even at 80/100 Hz XO and not utilizing the full range I’ll feel better about my purchase at least 🙂

Floorstanding speakers are coupled to the floor and therefore dont have floor bounce interference which can create distortion in the midbass.  They also have in your case multiple woofers placed close together which provides excellent control of the directivity of the bass and midbass frequencies.  They are also typically setup with the tweeters at ear level which is ideal.

 

Bookshelf speakers are much smaller and look better in many rooms where large speakers i.e. r28f are not desired.  Quality is always an jssue and while the RP series is a very big step up in clarity there are RP floorstanding speakers that negate that benefit vs the bookshelves.

 

There are many factors in a setup including placement and room treatment which are even more important than crossover frequency.  The crossover setting is used in almost every case at 60hz or higher because low frequencies are rarily replicated faithfully at the LOCATION of the L and R speaker.  Properly integrated subs and mains that are put in the right room positions will almost always result in better low frequency production.  Main speakers that play down low are typically only a benefit in 2 channel stereo listening wifhout subs.