KLF-30 instead of CF-4. Win or lose?

[wvu80]

2 hours ago, cincymat said:

For all you know, CF-4's sound like crap, or not. 

No, he's right.  The CF-4's sound pretty good. 

[ODS123]

On 1/27/2018 at 2:02 PM, Maximus89 said:

Theres the Ti mid diaphragms from the Cornwall III and Heresy III that 99% of people seem to hate and only Moray James seems to absolutely recommend. 

 

..I wonder if it's worth a try if i used a more warmer sounding cap for the mids?   

 

Tried working my way through this thread but stopped at the claim that 99% of people seem to hate the CWIII and HIII.   ..How could someone possibly know this?  I absolutely love my CW III's and so too has everyone who has heard them in my room. 

 

Not to be too harsh here,  but it seems inevitable that there will always be some people who think that a given brands engineering excellence (Klipsch, in the present case) ended w/ whatever model they own.  They'll argue that whatever followed their beloved iteration was diminished by craven cost-cutting efforts or dim-witted engineers.

 

Also, and I mean this sincerely, how can one capacitor sound warmer than another?

[jjptkd]

56 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

Not to be too harsh here,  but it seems inevitable that there will always be some people who think that a given brands engineering excellence (Klipsch, in the present case) ended w/ whatever model they own.  They'll argue that whatever followed their beloved iteration was diminished by craven cost-cutting efforts or dim-witted engineers.

 

Unfortunately this is a reality in a lot of cases, companies have to walk a thin line of meeting customer expectations while maintaining the bottom line keeping the bean counters happy. I would imagine while in the R&D phase certain design goals are set from the beginning and budget (cost vs sale price) is certainly top of the list. Klipsch engineers were given free reign to make the best they possibly could and produced a $20k pair of speakers, obviously not a product for mass market production.  

[ODS123]

24 minutes ago, jjptkd said:

 

Unfortunately this is a reality in a lot of cases, companies have to walk a thin line of meeting customer expectations while maintaining the bottom line keeping the bean counters happy. I would imagine while in the R&D phase certain design goals are set from the beginning and budget (cost vs sale price) is certainly top of the list. Klipsch engineers were given free reign to make the best they possibly could and produced a $20k pair of speakers, obviously not a product for mass market production.  

 

Pricing sensitivity is omnipresent; it didn't suddenly become a consideration just after someone's "best" version was developed.  It was ALWAYS there.

 

Does not explain how Klipsch could make a speaker that 99% of people hate.  ..A crazy claim.

[jjptkd]

1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

 

Pricing sensitivity is omnipresent; it didn't suddenly become a consideration just after someone's "best" version was developed.  It was ALWAYS there.

 

Does not explain how Klipsch could make a speaker that 99% of people hate.  ..A crazy claim.

I was not insinuating Klipsch did not consider costs of production prior to developing the best they could, simply pointing out that costs are a main driver in any business that wants to stay in business. Once a design goal has been achieved for a certain product most changes in the product from that point on are typically by people who wish to reduce production costs not for the sole purpose of higher profits but often times just to stay competitive in the market place. 

 

Of coarse a company cannot market a new and improved product by saying we found a way to produce widget "A" by cutting costs with cheaper materials and or off shore manufacturing but the sound is at least close to as good or slightly better than the old version based on your subjective opinion and by the way price just went up. 

 

All of that being said I have never claimed 99% of people hated any speaker, which I agree is a crazy claim. I personally have never heard the Cornwall III but have vented my frustration with the move to the smaller k-701 mid horn and 800hz crossover point many times although admittedly I'm not sure how much of a difference it actually makes vs the k-601 horn.

 

I have owned the Heresy III and can say that i was very disappointed in its performance, seemed very muffled like a sock was over the horns. I actually remember thinking they sounded very dull and un-horn like, probably the least horn-like sounding Klipsch speaker I've ever heard, not dynamic at all. I thought my RB-75's pretty much blew them away and they didn't even belong in the same room as my Crites modded Chorus II's. 

[ODS123]

2 hours ago, jjptkd said:

Once a design goal has been achieved for a certain product most changes in the product from that point on are typically by people who wish to reduce production costs not for the sole purpose of higher profits but often times just to stay competitive in the market place. 

 

 

What is your basis for believing this?  I've played a role in product development for nearly 20 years and have never known this to be some sort of absolute.  You're saying its axiomatic that product performance peaks early on in it's lifecycle, then from there it's all about cost cutting.  ..I'm sorry but that has simply not been my experience.   There is as much incentive today for Klipsch to optimize the sound of their Cornwalls and Heresy's as there was when they were first released.  After all, their performance is still being compared to other like-priced speakers on the market by those contemplating a sizable purchase.  And as an aside, cheaper materials and off-shore manufacturing does not necessarily equate with diminished performance whether your talking about speakers, automobiles, or toasters.  There are good reasons for seeking domestic sourcing, but its not always b/c of better quality.

 

As for the Heresy's sounding like they have a sock over the tweeter, that hasn't been my experience either.  ..I listened to Heresy's, Forte's and Cornwalls before buying my Cornwall III's and I would not characterize any of these speakers as sounding muffled.  ..But that is of course a matter of opinion.

[SWL]

 
Ironically even though the CF-4's have dual 12's they do NOT make low bass.  The cones move very little and the result is ultra low distortion with a mid range that is accurate.
 
 

I used to think that about the KLF-30'S in my main system. The woofers would barely move when I cranked them. I thought it was a good thing until I braced and properly sealed up the cabs. Then, a whole new level of bass was revealed.....and yes, when they are cranking the dual twelves are pounding away. Pretty cool to watch (as well as listen to).

Didn't some of the CF's have cabinet issues as well? Might be worth investigating. I remember hearing those CF-4's years ago when I was still in my car stereo days. I can't remember if the woofers were pounding or not but I do remember how awesome they sounded. It was my kind of sound. They rocked AND had excellent sound quality for aggressive music (rock).


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[wvu80]

21 minutes ago, SWL said:

Didn't some of the CF's have cabinet issues as well?

I have heard only recently that some CF-4's had glue problems.  Mine are pretty solid, but I braced them anyway, just because I could.

 

I recently added an Emotiva XPA-5 with about 200 wpc to my 110 wpc Onk 717 AVR.  I will say the extra power has added substantially to the CF-4 bass response.  The CF-4's still sound best in my Mancave when used with a 15" sealed sub.  They are extremely accurate, in particular with regards to dynamics, like a piano can co.

 

 

[SWL]

I have heard only recently that some CF-4's had glue problems.  Mine are pretty solid, but I braced them anyway, just because I could.
 
I recently added an Emotiva XPA-5 with about 200 wpc to my 110 wpc Onk 717 AVR.  I will say the extra power has added substantially to the CF-4 bass response.  The CF-4's still sound best in my Mancave when used with a 15" sealed sub.  They are extremely accurate, in particular with regards to dynamics, like a piano can co.
 
 

That's cool you braced them. I'm assuming you glued all the joints as well?

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[wvu80]

18 minutes ago, SWL said:

That's cool you braced them. I'm assuming you glued all the joints as well?

It was a few years ago and I don't quite remember.  I know I didn't remove sides or back and glue, and if you mean putting something like an expanding adhesive such as a polyurethane Gorilla glue or PL-II type along the edges, I don't think so.

 

There were already two braces side/side and I added another brace side/side in the middle which served as a shelf so the 12 pound EV DH1506 CD would have something to support the extra weight (OEM K-63 was about 4 pounds). I then added a long 3x1 top/bottom.  As I look at my pics I don't see anything where I glued the seams.

 

The center brace and the long brace are mine.  The top of the long brace is a rubber biscuit and is not screwed or glued to the top or bottom.  All braces are screwed to the long brace.  Everything else is factory.

 

[SWL]

Yeah, I'm thinking you want to glue those joints. Braces might help but they're not going to seal a leaking cabinet.

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[wvu80]

4 minutes ago, SWL said:

Yeah, I'm thinking you want to glue those joints. Braces might help but they're not going to seal a leaking cabinet.

To be clear, you are suggesting I seal all the seams with an expanding polyurethane glue? 

 

I could do that.

[SWL]

Yes. A lot of us used PL Premium X3. [emoji106]

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[wvu80]

5 minutes ago, SWL said:

Yes. A lot of us used PL Premium X3.

I know what you mean, I've used that before.

 

FYI the front baffle uses a putty-type sealing caulk.  I removed the old stuff with a knife and replaced it with a window-seal caulking putty, the kind that comes in a roll.

 

My picture is blurry but you get the idea.

 

 

[SWL]

With the PL Premium X3, you don't have to remove the baffle. You can work through the holes (remove all drivers, horns) and PUT IT ON THICK. Either a stiff paint brush or a rubber glove to shmear it into the joints. Really gob it in there. If nothing else, you'll have the peace of mind that your cabs will never come apart again and definitely will not be leaking any bass away.

 

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[SWL]

Front to back bracing might be a good thing as long as you're in there. Easy and cheap.

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[SWL]

I used 3/4 X 3/4. I didn't want to take too much away from the internal cabinet volume. Can always add more..... ain't gonna be fun if you have to take some out.

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[ZEUS121996]

35 minutes ago, wvu80 said:

To be clear, you are suggesting I seal all the seams with an expanding polyurethane glue? 

 

I could do that.

I used a gallon of carpenter's glue on a pair of Heresy and CWs. And I could have used some more. Being a wood chopper, it isn't pretty but it definitely sealed both pair up and stiffened the CWs. They are waiting in order to go to the veneer shop.

[wvu80]

5 hours ago, SWL said:

Front to back bracing might be a good thing as long as you're in there. Easy and cheap.
 

Not much room if your think about how close the drivers are in the front.

 

Edit:  I just saw the other pictures you posted.  Thanks! 

 

And thank you too Mark, I am studying your pics.

 

Edit to the Edit:  As I think about it if I brace with glue front to back there no longer will be any way to remove the baffle.  I probably will never have to do that again, just an observation.

 

[SWL]

Exactly. My idea was to seal the cab in a way that would leave no doubt that it was free of any leaks.

If for any reason I would have to remove a baffle in the future, then it would just be a good enough reason to build new cabs but I don't see that happening.

When I originally noticed a buzz in my right speaker I fixed it. It wasn't until I sealed up the other cab (5 years later) that I thought was fine.... I mean there was no indication anything was wrong with it....that I heard and felt the improved bass response and that improved the overall sound of the speaker.

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