Horn sub(s) to Belle/La Scala preferable?

[uams]

Hi folks, 

Being that the Klipsch Belle and La Scala's are all-horn speakers, would the best subwoofer match be that of some variant of a horn sub compared to direct radiating alternatives - be they sealed, OB, ported or other? My own speakers, Simon Mears Audio Uccello's, are similar to the Belle's with regard to the folded bass horn (the rest is different, but obviously still horn loaded), and I augment them from some 63Hz and downwards with an SVS SB16-Ultra sub. The pairing I find is very successful, and had space permitted I'd initially have bought two of them to load the room more smoothly with the lowest two octaves. 

 

I keep wondering though how a horn sub (or a pair of them in a bigger room) would implement with my main speakers instead, and I'm thinking in particular of a LAB12 variant of some kind. I'm sure there are many ways to theoretically elaborate on why horn subs are the best fit for horn mains (as opposed to horns + some direct radiating solution like in my, and I gather most other peoples cases), but I'm very interested in learning from people who have hands-on experience with using horn sub(s) with their Belle's or La Scala's, and who have also experimented with direct radiating subs here. To those who have, I'd be happy if you could elaborate on your sonic findings with horns subs vs. direct radiating alternatives, and how they "mesh" with your all-horn main speakers.

 

Please chime in.  

Edited February 10, 2018 by uams

[Chris A]

Depends on the size of the room, for sure.  If your listening room is really small (e.g., 12-15 feet laterally each direction, ceiling at 8 feet), you'll probably not hear a lot of difference between a DR and horn-loaded sub.  Small rooms pressurize much more easily, so the sub is able to provide reasonably linear output with controlled compression distortion. 

 

As the room size gets larger, you'll definitely hear the difference, even if the bandwidth of the sub(s) is limited to an octave or two.  This is not subtle, but can be disguised to some degree by moving the crossover frequency down as low as possible (probably 50-55 Hz) assuming that the "Uccellos" are room corner loaded.  This works up to the point that the DR sub must be used above perhaps ~85-90 dBC at one metre, then you'll hear the compression distortion take hold on the DR subs, while the horn-loaded sub(s) basically keep on going without apparent limitation.

 

You may think that this isn't a big deal because you might think that you don't really listen that loud overall.  But for low frequencies, this really isn't the case.  The following equal loudness contours will show you why subs basically play loud all the time: the curves get very close together below 100 Hz and therefore require the subs to play at a relatively high intensity all the time--only small changes in output acoustic pressure lead to big changes in perceived loudness, and it takes a lot .  In a small room, DR subs can usually pressurize the room well without moving mass effects and compression distortion (as well as ohmic heating of the voice coils) beginning to take over. All of these effects seem to gang up on the DR subs at the same time, so it tends to be very threshold-sensitive, and I've found that it's strongly related to the size of your listening room.

 

 

Chris

 

 

[jason str]

I have done much building, testing and listening with many types of subs, the difference between horn loaded and DR types is not a subtle one.

 

You can run a horn loaded sub with any type of mains but with horn loaded mains its best to use a horn loaded sub.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[uams]

@Chris A and @jason str, thanks for you replies. 

 

I'll get back to you both tomorrow.

[uams]

On ‎11‎-‎02‎-‎2018 at 2:39 AM, Chris A said:

Depends on the size of the room, for sure.  If your listening room is really small (e.g., 12-15 feet laterally each direction, ceiling at 8 feet), you'll probably not hear a lot of difference between a DR and horn-loaded sub.  Small rooms pressurize much more easily, so the sub is able to provide reasonably linear output with controlled compression distortion. 

 

As the room size gets larger, you'll definitely hear the difference, even if the bandwidth of the sub(s) is limited to an octave or two.  This is not subtle, but can be disguised to some degree by moving the crossover frequency down as low as possible (probably 50-55 Hz) assuming that the "Uccellos" are room corner loaded.  This works up to the point that the DR sub must be used above perhaps ~85-90 dBC at one metre, then you'll hear the compression distortion take hold on the DR subs, while the horn-loaded sub(s) basically keep on going without apparent limitation.

 

You may think that this isn't a big deal because you might think that you don't really listen that loud overall.  But for low frequencies, this really isn't the case.  The following equal loudness contours will show you why subs basically play loud all the time: the curves get very close together below 100 Hz and therefore require the subs to play at a relatively high intensity all the time--only small changes in output acoustic pressure lead to big changes in perceived loudness, and it takes a lot .  In a small room, DR subs can usually pressurize the room well without moving mass effects and compression distortion (as well as ohmic heating of the voice coils) beginning to take over. All of these effects seem to gang up on the DR subs at the same time, so it tends to be very threshold-sensitive, and I've found that it's strongly related to the size of your listening room.

 

 

Chris

 

 

 

@Chris A

 

Sorry for my delayed response. 

 

Thanks for your elaborate reply and supplied curves image. It would seem apparent that horn-loaded subs are close to limitless in SPL capability in nigh any room size one can muster in domestic environments. My current DR sub is indeed rather powerful and the driver sports an 8" voice coil - truly massive and unprecedented - and can take some 3.5kWatts in a 100 hour test signal. So, heating of the voice coil here, even with the build-in 1,5kWatt amp and in my some 2,000 cubic feet listening room, is not going to happen - at least not as something that would amount to a problem. 

 

My interest then revolves around the sonic imprinting of a horn-loaded subwoofer compared to a DR alternative. The driver in a horn-loaded sub need only move very little to create a significant and given SPL, and the resulting and effective air radiation area it sets in motion is also much bigger at the horn mouth compared to a DR sub (in most practical circumstances) - which is what the listener feels.

 

But how it does it feel? When you have a lighter moving parts system (diaphragm + voice coil + likely more "loose" suspension) from the driver in a horn sub that moves much less (and therefore has less inertia), I imagine that it sounds more agile and fleet-footed, and together with the bigger effective air radiation area might give the sensation of a more enveloping and nuanced bass reproduction - like a gentle wash of bass wave-front that hits you, as opposed to a DR sub that may sound more one-noted, punchy, and perhaps "dragging" a bit.

 

Of course, that's only speculation based on some theoretical assumptions. Nevertheless, can you relate your actual impressions of the sound of a horn sub to what I just described?

[uams]

On ‎11‎-‎02‎-‎2018 at 10:22 PM, jason str said:

I have done much building, testing and listening with many types of subs, the difference between horn loaded and DR types is not a subtle one.

 

You can run a horn loaded sub with any type of mains but with horn loaded mains its best to use a horn loaded sub.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

@jason str

 

Thanks for your reply. 

 

You write that "the difference between horn loaded and DR types is not a subtle one." How then would you describe the actual perceived difference? Please elaborate  

 

 

[jason str]

1 hour ago, uams said:

 

@jason str

 

Thanks for your reply. 

 

You write that "the difference between horn loaded and DR types is not a subtle one." How then would you describe the actual perceived difference? Please elaborate  

 

 

 

To put it simply, more refined and solid.

 

Take the Cornwall series and a Klipschorn for instance, not for the bigger horns up top but the bass. They both use the same K-33 driver but sound worlds apart from one another, best analogy i can think of.

 

 

[CECAA850]

23 minutes ago, jason str said:

To put it simply, more refined and solid.

Less fuzz.

[Schu]

Less bloating... more focused... no smearing.

[Thaddeus Smith]

And my pants always get tighter when there's a horn sub in the room.

 

[jimjimbo]

Just now, Thaddeus Smith said:

And my pants always get tighter when there's a horn sub in the room.

 

Now there's an awful visual.....

[Chris A]

1 hour ago, uams said:

Nevertheless, can you relate your actual impressions of the sound of a horn sub to what I just described?

I assume that you're wanting subjective listening impressions only...even though I spent a little time trying to answer your question(s) a bit more objectively... That's too bad, because the actual physics of what's occurring is known, and the subjective sound of those types of distortion (i.e., compression distortion, modulation distortion, and harmonic distortion, as well as mass-related distortion such as group delay distortion) is...opaqueness, less dynamic sound, hearing harmonic distortion that gives the impression of "more bass", and an overemphasized, heavy-sounding bass.

 

Well, I guess that I answered your question after all...

[uams]

Thanks for replying, folks. 

 

Now, to narrow these impressions a bit more down, what variation of horn subs are you referring to specifically? I'm looking mainly at LAB12 subs, but they're relatively bulky, although I gather most horn subs naturally are.

 

Recommendations are welcome, and if any here have actual experience with LAB subs I'd be very interested to learn of your impressions - not least comparisons between different horn subs. 

[jason str]

5 minutes ago, uams said:

Thanks for replying, folks. 

 

Now, to narrow these impressions a bit more down, what variation of horn subs are you referring to specifically? I'm looking mainly at LAB12 subs, but they're relatively bulky, although I gather most horn subs naturally are.

 

Recommendations are welcome, and if any here have actual experience with LAB subs I'd be very interested to learn of your impressions - not least comparisons between different horn subs. 

 

You will need to be more specific, many horn models use Eminence Lab 12" and Lab 15" drivers.

[Schu]

11 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

And my pants always get tighter when there's a horn sub in the room.

 

Well then there's that to... 

 

I mean one can look at Mike's post as hyperbolic, but like many legends and fairytales, there is always an element of truth.

[CECAA850]

6 minutes ago, Schu said:

Well then there's that to... 

 

I mean one can look at Mike's post as hyperbolic, but like many legends and fairytales, there is always an element of truth.

Yep, he craps his pants every time.

[uams]

3 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I assume that you're wanting subjective listening impressions only...even though I spent a little time trying to answer your question(s) a bit more objectively... That's too bad, because the actual physics of what's occurring is known, and the subjective sound of those types of distortion (i.e., compression distortion, modulation distortion, and harmonic distortion, as well as mass-related distortion) is...opaqueness, less dynamic sound, hearing harmonic distortion that gives the impression of "more bass", and an overemphasized, heavy-sounding bass.

 

Well, I guess that I answered your question after all...

 

@Chris A

 

Please be aware I'm very appreciative of your more "objective" takes on this matter. 

 

That being said I'm not afraid, if you will, to put actual credence in subjective impressions as worthwhile intel by people here (or elsewhere). Objectivity is or should be a quantifiable measure, but depending on what you're outlining in this regard it's easily not very illuminating on the actual perceived sound; how do you "convert" data that's mostly about decibels and measurements into something remotely resembling sonic impressions to the ear? Horn subs are SPL monsters, sure, but their sound signature - which is worthwhile being elaborated on due to its apparent and outright qualities - is not revealed through this information. The latter part of your reply above is what actually makes the sound of a horn sub relatable, even though it's your subjective take. And the more of those we have, the more a picture may begin to be drawn of the more "objective" side of the actual perceived sonics. 

[Chris A]

Yes, I think that I got that.  Good luck...

[uams]

13 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

You will need to be more specific, many horn models use Eminence Lab 12" and Lab 15" drivers.

 

Of course. I would refer to the LAB sub using the Eminence LAB12 units.

[jason str]

5 minutes ago, uams said:

 

Of course. I would refer to the LAB sub using the Eminence LAB12 units.

 

I assume you mean the Labhorn ?

 

Good for live sound applications, better options are available if you need something for home use.