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Horn sub(s) to Belle/La Scala preferable?


uams

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4 hours ago, JBCODD said:

If you search "Cinems F-20 Build" in the Subwoofer section of the forum you will find a lot of info. There are many forum members who own and swear by this sub. I don't remember if there is a lot of comparative data posted, but others may chime in with their experiences.

    I tried to post a link to one of the build threads, but can't figure how. Any hints from the gallery?

 

I'll  try and do a more extensive search here, thanks. Was presented with the F20 over at the AVS Forum..

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4 hours ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

This one's mine, built by Carl. I use it, along with two TH-SPUD clones and it all sounds wonderful to me.

 

 

Also, holy crap!! I didn't realize I've had it for 6 years now.

 

Much appreciated, that's a long and informative thread (so far gotten to page 15). 

 

What driver is used in your F20? Can't remember from the thread, sorry. Did you break it in prior to installing it, or if not has the sound of the F20 "developed" over time? 

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This driver is a direct drop in:  https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss390hf-4-15-reference-hf-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-468

 

No need to worry about break-in periods. There's been no discernible evolution of sound over time, it has just done it's job as expected.I've paired with RF-5's, KP-201s (pro Heresy) and now La Scalas - the latter of which it has seemed to blend the most seamlessly with. Unfortunately, my electronics and understanding of their configuration has changed over time as well, so I don't really have a "control group" to serve as the basis for comparison.

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51 minutes ago, jason str said:

 

The THT is meant to be fired into a boundary, the F-20 is not. Placed in a corner or firing into any boundary all bets are off, the THT uses the boundary to extend the horn and add 12+ dB not including cabin gain.

 

Pay the extra $15 for the plans, easier is not better in this case.

 

That's interesting, and potentially quite vital in my case being that I have limited options for placement of the sub.

 

My current SVS sub is placed between my main horn speakers (as seen on the pic of my setup), but I won't be able to place my upcoming horn sub neither here nor on either side/corner of the main speakers due to space restrictions and my fixed frame cinema screen. So, either it will have to be placed against the left wall (from where it will be in the line of sight from my listening position), or behind the listening position/sofa against the back wall in either one or the other corner. 

 

For some reason I'm not thrilled at the thought of placing a sub behind me, so as is I'm mostly looking at the left wall option, in which case the horn sub will only meet to boundaries. Initially I'd have opted for the 36" THTLP, front firing version, but perhaps the version firing upwards towards the ceiling would be a better option when placed against the left wall? 

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41 minutes ago, JustAuBy said:

 

Looks like a wild weasel, this ""Othorn." From what I've read of the tapped horns they sport slightly higher distortion compared to the likes of THT and F20, and in this specific case the LF roll-off also comes earlier - both of which would defeat the purpose of my horn sub goal. I'd guess the Othorn is more of a pro sound max output kind of device, for which I'm sure it's very capable. And 18-21" drivers? Ouch..

EDIT: I'm reminded of the Depeche Mode concert here in Copenhagen, Denmark in Sept. 2001, where they used the blue-box Turbosound Flashlight horn systems. The bass horns used 21" Precision Devices units, and the totality of the sound was crazy visceral, dense, full and LOUD. I've yet to attend a concert that equals this sound system... 

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1 hour ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

This driver is a direct drop in:  https://www.parts-express.com/dayton-audio-rss390hf-4-15-reference-hf-subwoofer-4-ohm--295-468

 

No need to worry about break-in periods. There's been no discernible evolution of sound over time, it has just done it's job as expected.I've paired with RF-5's, KP-201s (pro Heresy) and now La Scalas - the latter of which it has seemed to blend the most seamlessly with. Unfortunately, my electronics and understanding of their configuration has changed over time as well, so I don't really have a "control group" to serve as the basis for comparison.

 

Good, the same driver that's recommended for the THT. 

 

Happy to see the La Scala's blending seamlessly with the F20. Since my main speakers are derived in a sense from the Belle I'd assume they fit the bill here as well. 

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I'm thinking whether there isn't an ideal width with the THT that loads the driver the best way? My impression is that this is accounted for with the F20, and that the version available is with the most ideal width in relation to protection of the driver. It would seem the 24" THT is the "standard" width?

 

Maybe this is only an issue when driving the horn near its maximum capabilities, but I'd like to get a bearing on this nonetheless, thanks. 

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I built a THT to use with my La Scalas.  I think it is about 30" wide ( I made it 1/2" narrower than the door to the room).  Sounds fantastic.  It blends seamlessly with my La Scala bins.  It just sounds like I have a huge pair of La Scalas that dig down to ~20hz or so. 

I was using a cheap 12" vented sub before that sounded like crap.  I could never get it to blend well with the horn bass of the mains.  Going to a horn sub was night and day.  Now I can shake the floors and rattle the windows all day with clean, deep bass. 

It is a huge beast though!  Dwarfs the La Scalas in size, and they are not small speakers.  If you have the room for one, I cannot recommend it enough.  I am fortunate enough to have a basement music room/home theater where WAF is not a consideration. 

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  • 4 weeks later...

I have a DIY dual 15" sub running off a crown amp and I can tell you it sounds phenomenal.  That being said I've never run it with a horn loaded sub so I have no idea how much better it could sound.....but you can't go wrong with a decent sub and a good AVR or receiver that can run room correction.  My sub blends perfectly with my Belles

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@Tarheel TJ and @Kalifornian

 

Thanks for chiming in. 

 

I think for a while I intended for the build of a single horn sub only, with the option to possibly add another and similar horn sub later for an eventual pair. As is now though I want to go dual from the get-go, as I'm under the impression that duals in itself will be a rather substantial upgrade over single use. Moreover I've narrowed down the specific horn sub of choice, namely "lilmike's" (from the AVS Forum) MicroWrecker tapped horn, intended for the use with a 15" driver. A fitting unit from Italian manufacturer B&C that models very well in the MicroWrecker will fill in the duties, and with two of those TH subs there should be ample headroom to come by in my listening room. 

 

The 2. runners up was the Othorn by Josh Ricci, but the 21" units used here, also from B&C, are quite pricey, and a pair of those would be too much of a cash outpour to begin with. I could've started single here, but I'm set on getting a horn sub pair from the beginning. For HT use the Othorn may also have a low corner a bit too high. Even though two of those in a moderately sized listening room is the equivalent of hammering down sparrows with ship cannons, they certainly have me intrigued (with two MicroWrecker's insert Howitzer's instead of ship cannons). Of course I also considered lilmike's F20 as well as Mr. Fitzmaurice's THT. I'm sure both of those are excellent horns as well. 

 

I'm aware some here have advised against tapped horns for use with main speakers the likes of Belles and La Scala's, and that Front Loaded Horns are preferable here, but tapped horns come in many iterations of varying quality and for different use, and I'm quite confident the MicroWrecker's are fine tapped horns that will suit my needs for both music and Home Theater use. As pre-assembled horn subs Danley's TH-50 would also fit the bill, but this is a DIY project.

 

I'm hoping my horn sub project will commence sometime this summer. 

 

 

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That sounds like a good plan.  I would love to have a second THT to even out room response a bit.  But even in my large, WAF-free basement, I can't figure out where I could fit a second one.  I could maybe build a low profile version with a 12" driver and jam it in a corner somewhere, but even that would be a challenge.  I have never personally tried it, but it is my understanding that multiple subs are absolutely the best option for smooth bass response.  I think if you cross them pretty low, a pair of tapped horns will probably sound excellent.

 

 

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On ‎23‎-‎04‎-‎2018 at 7:05 PM, Tarheel TJ said:

That sounds like a good plan.  I would love to have a second THT to even out room response a bit.  But even in my large, WAF-free basement, I can't figure out where I could fit a second one.  I could maybe build a low profile version with a 12" driver and jam it in a corner somewhere, but even that would be a challenge.  I have never personally tried it, but it is my understanding that multiple subs are absolutely the best option for smooth bass response.  I think if you cross them pretty low, a pair of tapped horns will probably sound excellent.

 

 

 

Sufficient space is certainly needed, and it's not that I got loads of it in my listening room either, but with some minor rearrangements a pair of MicroWrecker's should see their proper place. Room-fill wise a single one would be enough, but when I've heard well-implemented dual sub setups through a variety of system I've always had that similar-ish sensation of an important aspect being added to the experience. It's hard to describe, really, but the perceived quality is something like a sense of enveloping presence that frames the whole of the sound sphere more effectively - indeed more naturally. I'm sure some may take issue with my way of describing it, pointing out that it's more about smooth response and "attacking" room modes more effectively, but perhaps we're saying the same thing differently here. It may also have to do with relieving the subs or some SPL's when they're in pairs (or more) which, even at volumes that aren't extreme by any measure, makes for a more relaxed, effortless presentation. In that regard it's surprising, to me at least, when this effect of ease is heard - that is, even at more moderate volumes. I guess there's something to be said about ample headroom, and sheer air displacement area..

 

I intend to cross to MicroWrecker somewhere between 60-65Hz, and the measurements I've seen of if indicate that the "ringing" phenomena typically associated with TH is less pronounced, if really at all easily up to 100Hz, so I suspect there should be no issues here. 

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  • 2 months later...
  • 4 months later...
On ‎7‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 6:11 PM, avguytx said:

@uams    Did you ever build one of the subs?

 

@avguytx Sorry I never got around to get back to you on your question, until now. 

 

The status currently is that my pair of MicroWreckers will finally be finished within a month or so. I've hired a cabinet maker to build them, and we've sent CAD-drawings of the MW to a company that will CNC-machine the 11-layer Russian Birch ply boards, and then the cabinet maker will start the assembly - if all goes according to plan in about 2 weeks time. With quality ply like this I've decided to have them finished in clear oil only, nothing more. 

 

The drivers I've bought for the MW's are the B&C 15TBX100 (the sibling model 15SW115 also comes recommended here), which models very well for this tapped horn (this driver is also used in Danley's TH-115). I'm unaware of anyone having tested these drivers in the MW, so I'll be the "test rabbit" with this particular driver combination. They're rated at 1000 watts RMS, but in the MW will hit mechanical limit at about 600 watts according to poster @lilmike (the creator of the MW) over at the AVSforum. 

 

The sub amp I've bought is a used Crown Macro-Tech 1200, and I have a Xilica XP-3060 digital crossover on the way "as we speak." Earlier I intended to let my main all-horn speakers run full-range and have the MW's low-passed at about 60-65 Hz, but now my revised plan is to high-pass my mains somewhere between 90-100 Hz. Although the MW is a tapped horn it looks to be quite well behave even beyond 100 Hz, from the measurements I've seen, and so I hope crossing them up to 100 Hz won't be problematic. Relieving both the mains and amp used for them below some 100 Hz should prove favorable, and likely make for better integration with the MW's for a couple of reasons. 

 

As an outset at least I intend to place one MW on its side between my main speakers, and the second one against the rear wall - hopefully to make for a rather effective loading of the room. We'll see how it all turns out - I'll keep you informed..

 

/Mikael

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  • 4 months later...

@uams  So did they get done?  I've read on numerous forums where you've asked about most every horn sub out there.  Did you stay with these or something else?  Seems like an overkill to have someone CNC them for a build...especially a cabinet maker.  

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On ‎4‎/‎9‎/‎2019 at 4:54 PM, avguytx said:

@uams  So did they get done?  I've read on numerous forums where you've asked about most every horn sub out there.  Did you stay with these or something else?  Seems like an overkill to have someone CNC them for a build...especially a cabinet maker.  

 

@avguytx --

 

Thanks for your interest :)

 

Yes, the pair of MicroWreckers were finished by mid January, and since their arrival in my setup here have undergone quite the experimentation with regard to their placement in my listening room, as well as still undergoing the process of being progressively run-in. My initial plan to have them placed front center/rear wall was eventually replaced by them being positioned along each their side wall, symmetrically to the mains, and in stereo. Many if not most may argue the validation of running a pair of subs in true stereo crossed below some 100Hz - with reference both to whether musical material (certainly digital) is really recorded in stereo in the bass below 80-100Hz (some is), and whether we're able to discern stereo information this low in frequency (we are, I'd say) - but I can say for sure that running the MW's symmetrically to the mains has aided their integration, in a way even that now has the MW's integrate seamlessly with my all-horn Uccello's. Inherently though the MW's integrate better, even from the outset, than my previous SVS SB16-Ultra ever came to do - just to be clear.

 

So here I am, having now finally found the placement for the MW's (after some 2 months with various positioning) and also settled on the cross-over frequency at 80Hz, where my mains are high-passed as well. The slope type, both the high- and low-pass here, is Linkwitz-Riley at 42dB/octave as is, with a high-pass on the MW's at 20Hz 24dB/octave Butterworth slope, for driver protection and theoretical distortion minima. Even closing in on 3 months of use it's clear the MW's are not yet fully run-in; every now and then I can hear how they develop in small, but still rather significant audible "notches" that has the bass gain in impact and becoming fuller and more enveloping. Those B&C drivers are stiffly suspended, and they move very little even being given a fairly good workout with Blu-ray movies in particular, so I suspect a lengthy process for them to loosen up. 

 

The MicroWreckers are crazy good subs, indeed I haven't heard bass this refined, effortless, smooth and enveloping/present. There's a natural, liquid warmth even to their reproduction (while sporting no overhang) that shakes the air in a way very differently compared to my earlier SVS, which had a more "brutal" along-the-floor and slab-like presentation of bass, but also having a more congested and "massive" feel to it as if it struggled with inertia and slight compression even. The SVS went slightly deeper, I'd say about 5Hz, and this is not insignificant with certain Blu-ray movies where below 20Hz reproduction creates a certain shudder effect - something many cinephiles crave. For my own part, while it felt like a sacrifice to begin with, the more the MW's are run in the less I feel is lacking here, to the point now where I feel the gains in the midbass down to 20Hz and overall bass character more than makes up for any loss of <20Hz extension compared to the SVS. 

 

Oh, I may have been rather "visible" in forums here and there in my insatiable appetite to know of horn bass in its different sonic incarnations - sorry if I've "pestered" any discussions here with my presence. I just find it interesting to know what others feel here, and how they come about their impressions of bass from both horns, other hidden-driver 6th order BP iterations, and direct radiator solutions. I've felt it necessary to help me hone in on where to put my efforts sub-wise, but it's an ongoing discussion I'm still invested in :)

 

Regarding the CNC-machining: it was actually the cabinet maker that I hired (and knew beforehand) that suggested we go the route of CNC, so to make for the most sturdy, rigid (the horn panels are cut into the side walls) and aesthetically pleasing outcome of the cabinets. Though cab-build tolerances are, well, tolerated with bass horns, the final result here has all measurements fit to the mm, and there are absolutely no air leaks. A lesser build and ply quality would surely have been accepted, but I wanted a premium build quality to give these the benefit of the doubt, so to speak, in whichever way it may support the quality of the bass and resilience to high-power use (the pressure build-up inside the horn with high SPL's can be significant), subtle it may be. 

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  Was planning on a single 6’ tapped horn to replace sealed pro subs. The size difference has postponed this project. The weight is about the same. The horn is four times the size.  Think people called it the coffee table sub. I was going to have it rotated 90 degrees and call it a sofa table sub. 

  With sealed box the key is to cross low and steep. I use 60 Hz and 18 dB slopes. Played with 6 and 12 dB for low pass. Changed back to both at 18 dB.

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