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imaging ?


boxerjake

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24 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

I can get good imaging with my lasclas which the electronics are all analog (tube pre and amps).  Not as much imaging with the digital systems using processors.

zactly!

which keeps me from Jubes.

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Well I have 4 systems running in the same room.  Two all analog and two with digital processors.  There would be no question to anyone with ears which systems produce the most micro detail and best stereo images.  Like Chris always says..........YMMV

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My 1984 la scalas did it the best with refreshed networks.  I would get a "3D sound coming out".  Vocals were not coming from the speakers, but instead were right in front of me. 

 

My current  Cornscalas do it pretty well too when pulled out from the walls.  With The ampsandsound Kenzie encore and monoblocked MC275's, there are instruments that  seem like they move out towards me from one speaker then back to the other.  It can startle me at times.  Some of the synthesizer sounds can do the "tangible thing" like coming out and touching me.  It's hard to explain.  I know this sounds like I'm on drugs.

 

My family and local friends are more interested in the clarity, big sound coming out,  and room shaking bass.

 

 

 

 

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I say the same thing all the time but it's the room.   No doubt a room and setup  can work without treatment but imo its the reflections that can destroy a clear centered image.  I do not think the speaker matters all that much.  When one speaker sounds better in the same room its the room characteristics combined with that speaker, not the speaker.  I do acknowledge huge differences in speaker quality and design but dont buy that the speaker makes the difference for imaging.  Quality for sure but good centered image is all about room and setup imo.

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21 minutes ago, mark1101 said:

 

I am in the process of converting my Jubs to analog.  To try.

I've just completed converting my jub setup to full analog (tubes with passive crossovers). The intention was "to try" it out, while at the same time retaining the capability to A/B between full analog and digital. I'm still in the process of comparing all the different types of media. The jury is still out...  But, I have to admit that I used to be totally sold on the active jub trend but as I continue the experiment I'm finding that there's a lot of joy to be had doing it the old fashioned way.

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My previous speakers were from a company called Audio Physic, the Tempo 3's.  When I first walked into the audio shop and had a listen, I was blown away by how the speakers completely disappeared within the sound field. From a visual standpoint, it looked like they were just sitting there doing nothing, yet the room was filled with sound and great imaging as well.   I wanted that.  I later found that to be a design attribute of the speaker line and a goal of the designer.  Took awhile to find a pair on Audiogon, at a price that I was happy with.  Enjoyed them for several years until the desire for horns arose and sold them for the Epic CF3's. They too, do a decent disappearing act, but not at the level of the Tempos, but the effortless slam factor of the Epics more than make up for that. 

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22 minutes ago, DavidH said:

I've just completed converting my jub setup to full analog (tubes with passive crossovers). The intention was "to try" it out, while at the same time retaining the capability to A/B between full analog and digital. I'm still in the process of comparing all the different types of media. The jury is still out...  But, I have to admit that I used to be totally sold on the active jub trend but as I continue the experiment I'm finding that there's a lot of joy to be had doing it the old fashioned way.

where is it you got passives for the Jubilee... and for what driver?

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12 hours ago, boxerjake said:

 

Have to disagree .. obviously you've never experienced what I'm explaining ...

 

I've got 10's of thousands of FLAC files and run what is arguably the finest Bryston  digital player on the market , top of the line VPI table and a HDCD worth more than my pickup truck ...

 

It's not source dependent  ....   It's a combination of room treatments , speakers and amps .

 

Tonight I was at my best friends place , his room is full of treatments .. his gear is top of the line krell mono blocks feeding a pair of Focals worth about as much as I paid for my first house 20 years ago ...

 

The music was right there in my face ... I could see the towers standing in the corners yet I couldn't hear the music coming from them .. it was being projected directly in front of me ... absolutely an amazing listening experience . nothing I've ever came close to in the past 30 years of being faithful to k-horns , belles . lascala's , cornwalls and or  hersey's . 

 

I'm not slamming any klipsch gear .. I've owned everything klipsch has even made ... just never reached this level of amazing before

It may not be source dependent, but I think you will find that on your friend's system that blew you away, certain recordings (regardless of LP, CD, FLAC, etc.) are recorded well or not well in that some produce a stunning, holographic soundstage, imaging, and some really suck.  The better the system the wider the quality spread between poor and excellent become. 

 

And no, Klipsch speakers are not in the upper echelon when it comes to soundstaging and imaging. 

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Some of the BEST imaging I have ever hear was from Jazz and Classical recordings made in the late 50s, and early 60s.  It is just that rock music in general and British rock music in particular was such that the engineers, producers etc, really did not have a handle on what stereo was all about. They treated it like a special effect rather than a tool to convey space and natural ambience in 3 dimensions.     Ella Fitzgerald was mentioned. Listen to 'Round Midnight off her Clap Hands Here Comes Charlie CD on the Verve/Polygram Classic CD.  

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One would not expect to delineate individual instruments in an orchestra. But telling where the woodwinds, brass, strings and percussion are IS what imaging is all about.  Listen to RCA Living Stereo orchestral recordings from the 50s and early 60s (they made 2 and 3 track stereo tape recordings starting in the early 50s in anticipation of the advent of stereo LP records) and that is exactly what you get, location of where the woodwinds, brass, strings and percussion are, just like going to a music hall. 

 

Just because someone is a musician, that does not make them an audiophile. 

 

Back in the 80s I sold my Cornwalls to get Rogers Studio One speakers for the imaging aspect. The best imaging speakers I have heard so far have been several models of ProAc speakers. It is weird, but when it comes to early stereo recording the US had the upper hand, but ultimately it is the British monitors that ace stereo imaging.  

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The fact that Paul Klipsch designed his system to have a center speaker (Heresy, Belle, or Cornwall) to augment his Klipsch Horn to get a center image gives you a hint into how poorly the Classic line of Klipsch speakers do imaging.    I have no idea what the modern designs are capable of, but I suspect they are much better than the original designs. 

 

But once you place even your classic Klipsch speakers with imaging, rather than bass response, as a priority, they image much better than expected. 

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1 hour ago, DavidH said:

Good Morning Schu, I purchased them from the previous owner who had them built by Dean, who followed the schematic engineered by ALK. Drivers for the K-402 horns are TAD's.

 

Any chance we could get a pic of those networks?  :)

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Is the OP really saying that with for instance an old Beatles recording where vocals are on one channel and the majority of instruments are on the other(like another poster alluded to) that he is able to get good stereo imaging? By having the right speakers and amplifiers? Nonsense.

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3 hours ago, mark1101 said:

I can get good imaging with my lasclas which the electronics are all analog (tube pre and amps).  Not as much imaging with the digital systems using processors.

There is a fairly interesting explanation for this but it doesn't really involve "analog only" or the magic of tubes, but rather preservation of phase information by the setup.  Much less likely are the effects of high output impedance present in single-ended triode or pentode amplifiers.  This type of imaging performance would be most likely case for those recordings that have the least amount of mastering processing (including mastering EQ) that has occurred to them. 

 

But that explanation involves that white paper by Dave Griesinger on the subject of clarity...a subject that was poo-pooed out of hand in another thread posted within the last couple of months.  I'll refrain from trying to explain because of the experience of that earlier thread. (The explanation is pretty cool, though.)  Feel free to PM however, if you're interested in understanding this subject.  It also relates to how the clarity of MEH-type loudspeakers is tied to polar good directivity control vs. frequency, low phase growth, and effective point source output as well as suppressing early reflections (0.7 to about 5 ms related delays) via increasing the ratio of low phase growth direct-to-reflected energy in room.

 

Chris

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