kink56 Posted March 7, 2018 Author Share Posted March 7, 2018 I would have expected the Belles and the LaScalas to sound the same. I have heard LaScalas back in 1979 and I chose the Cornwalls over them. I have never heard Belles however. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 10 hours ago, USNRET said: Owned both, stock, same room, same equipment, same media and you are correct the LS in no way sounds as good as the Belle measured by my ears. Oh, way before any cosmetic or internal changes... STOCK Ears-room-opinion It's funny how opinions differ with so many people on the SQ between the Belle's and the La Scala's. Some say the Belle is inferior because of the shorter horn since the cabinets differ in depth and width. Then others say the Belle sounds better. So it's definitely a personal preference. I personally like the outward looks of the Belle's better which is why I built them. You definitely have the best personal say in this as you've been able to compare both in the same conditions which is valuable info. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KlipschFish Posted March 7, 2018 Share Posted March 7, 2018 I think those Seattle Belles were in a local shop a year or so ago. $2500 asking price Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieStl Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Belles and La Scalas do sound almost identical. I have two pair of each with one of the LS pair being industrial splits. All good and hard to distinguish any difference. The room they are in makes more of a difference than if you use LS or Belles. LS II may be a step up but at a big price upgrade. If you are looking to pay that kind of money for Belles, and then pay for high priced veneer, you may want to go the LS II route. I over paid ($2200 w/ AB x over) for my first pair of Belles but don't regret it for a minute. The sooner you get them, the sooner you get to start enjoying that beautiful sound they produce. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopardave Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 22 hours ago, kink56 said: I would have expected the Belles and the LaScalas to sound the same. I have heard LaScalas back in 1979 and I chose the Cornwalls over them. I have never heard Belles however. How does the Cornwall sound compared to the Belle? Never heard anyone compare the two. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted March 8, 2018 Share Posted March 8, 2018 Find any comparison of Cornwall's and La Scala's and it will be about the same thing. Cornwall has more bass but, it's said, more distortion, versus the more efficient LS's and Belle's with horn loaded bass/less of it but accurate. Etc., etc. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted March 8, 2018 Author Share Posted March 8, 2018 However it takes only ONE review like this from someone who has owned many speaker I am familiar with as it comes to imaging, to make me very cautious: audioaddictNH AudioPhile [Nov 05, 2003] Strength: Power, clarity and mid bass tonality Weakness: Imaging The Belle is simply a fun speaker. It is not the most accurate speaker I've ever owned by a wide margin but it's ability to convey power and emotion may be as good as I've heard and I've owned a large number of high end speakers( Duntech Marquis, Celestion 700, Quad 63,Magnepan MG 3 and 3A and about a dozen others). If you enjoy "big music" large symphonic, opera or real rock these speakers do a many things right. If pinpoint imaging is critical forget these but if tonality in the lower mids and bass are important then seriously consider these speakers. These guys move air! You can feel the music. I'm using a Golden Tube SE40SE tube amp on them with an Audible Illusions preamp and these guys sing. I have my Quads in another system for music that is less demanding and where imaging and spatial characteristics are key, but when you put music on the Belles that has real kick it's hard to keep from smiling. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avguytx Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 Sounds like you need to find someone near you, within reason, and go listen to their Belles or La Scala's and make sure they're what you want before you drop the coin on them. Maybe even call Klipsch and find out if there is a dealer in your area that displays Heritage like the Cornwall III, Forte III, and La Scala II so you can make sure that's what you want. Heck, put an ad on Craigslist that you'd like to listen to a pair of anyone out in your area has some. I'd spend the time and money on that before spending it on something you haven't really heard. Surely someone in the state owns a pair. But that's just me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JBCODD Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 @kink56 I live in Chandler Az, and have a pair of la Scala. If there is no one in Your general area that you can get a listen from we could probably arrange a session. The only turntable I have is a Victrola, so vinyl is out, but cd's will work. I use a 1980's SS Yamaha pre and amp for signal processing. No sub yet. I am generally available Fri & Sat after noon. Sunday after 1300. Shoot me a PM if yer interested. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 5 hours ago, kink56 said: However it takes only ONE review like this from someone who has owned many speaker I am familiar with as it comes to imaging, to make me very cautious: I think I hear what you're saying, and in your listening imaging is important. Absolutely nothing wrong with that, we all have our priorities for our listening gear. There are even people out there where a loud rock sound is important. That's different from me because I value accuracy above most else, but BOTH are OK. I have also had some other nice speakers. I've owned Magnapan Magnaplaners, one of the best imaging speakers I've ever owned. But what I discovered is that imaging comes at a price. To get the full effect the Maggies had to be two feet from the back wall, toed in just right with nothing in between them. They need big power. And then I had to be sitting down, exactly in the middle. Stand up and that great sound goes away. Move a foot to the right off-axis and the imaging goes away. That's why when you read a review it's important to consider how they will sound in YOUR room with YOUR stuff with YOUR ears. I did the long-winded version of what @avguytx said in one sentence ^^^. Which I agree with. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
USNRET Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 ROOM, ROOM, ROOM My beloved Belles fell short in this house New KHorns didn't work (even with enclosed backs) Cornwall IIIs are working pretty darn good What would Forte IIIs do? I wonder. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
richieb Posted March 9, 2018 Share Posted March 9, 2018 14 hours ago, mopardave said: How does the Cornwall sound compared to the Belle? Never heard anyone compare the two. Owned both at the same time, same room, same amp(s). As good as CW sound they came off slow, reserved/laid back, compared to Belles. So much so that I thought there were issues with the CW and going so far as to remove and test the crossovers. Maybe its me, maybe that particular room but horn loaded vs.ported bass, with those speakers, was light night and day. And now with Jubes and LS I still wouldn't mind another real nice pair of Corns. Yeah - I know --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted March 9, 2018 Author Share Posted March 9, 2018 12 hours ago, JBCODD said: @kink56 I live in Chandler Az, and have a pair of la Scala. If there is no one in Your general area that you can get a listen from we could probably arrange a session. The only turntable I have is a Victrola, so vinyl is out, but cd's will work. I use a 1980's SS Yamaha pre and amp for signal processing. No sub yet. I am generally available Fri & Sat after noon. Sunday after 1300. Shoot me a PM if yer interested. Very generous of you. Thanks. Here is a nice set of K-Horns in your area: http://www.usaudiomart.com/details/649415548-vintage-klipsch-klipschorns-loudspeakers-in-brazilian-rosewood-lacquer/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted March 9, 2018 Author Share Posted March 9, 2018 I think ALL speakers image the best away from all walls, just like the mentioned Magnepans. This is how I place my previous or other speakers as well, including my current Forte Is. My Rogers Studio IAs leave the Forte Is in the dust when it comes to imaging, and their bass is just as extended. The Rogers resolve detail better too. Well let's put it this way, the Rogers are better all around except for sensitivity and dynamics. But they both need a subwoofer to get that bottom octave and weight and gut-punch. The electrostatic speakers that really impressed me with the early Martin Logans with ENTEC subwoofers back in the 80s. That was what sold me on the ENTEC subwoofer. They kept up with the speed of an Electrostatic and they are flat to subsonic levels as tested in one of my homes. I do not mind a narrow "sweet spot" as I do my critical listening alone and I never have parties. Besides I am the one paying for the system, so why would I care whether any of my guests like it or not? Yes, critical listening is anti-social except when you have a like minded friend or partner who enjoys when I demo things for them when THEY are listening in the sweet spot. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted March 9, 2018 Author Share Posted March 9, 2018 Well I bought them. I should be getting them in about a week or so. Now I have been reading the ALK site and about his universal crossover. I have read and half way understood WHY the original AA crossover in these Belles are not up to snuff. I plan on getting the Crites or the ALK D-120 or the Crites DE-120 tweeters. Both sites got me sold on those. (I am sure they are the same product, right?). What I LIKE about the ALK universal is it would address my concern about the Belle's "shelving" below around 200hz that would make it so it would not integrate with my subwoofer, especially since I am placing the Belles about 2 feet from the back wall. Both the midrange and the tweeter can be attenuated, and that is adjustable. I can blend in and balance all the drivers in effect. Then there is the Crites B&K Type 4500. No adjustability but it frees up the stock midrange driver and gives a bit more lower frequency to the tweeter, (cannot and will not use the stock tweeter anyway). But I am not sure if this crossover also addresses the other shortcomings of the stock AA crossover that the ALK address, plus if the bass is a tad weak in volume (shelving effect below 200hz on Heresy I, II and on LaScalla I and Belles) I could not make this adjustment that the ALK offers. What say the experts here? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gnote Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 I had Belles and Lascala's at the same time and I actually preferred the sound of the Belles but just slightly. As many have mentioned they are very close in sound. The best bang for your buck and foot print in my opinion is Lascala's with a horn loaded sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MookieStl Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 1 hour ago, kink56 said: Then there is the Crites B&K Type 4500. No adjustability but it frees up the stock midrange driver and gives a bit more lower frequency to the tweeter, (cannot and will not use the stock tweeter anyway). But I am not sure if this crossover also addresses the other shortcomings of the stock AA crossover that the ALK address, plus if the bass is a tad weak in volume (shelving effect below 200hz on Heresy I, II and on LaScalla I and Belles) I could not make this adjustment that the ALK offers. What say the experts here? No expert here by any stretch of the imagination but I have heard many versions of x overs in Belles and LaScalas. I replaced the dreaded AB in my first set of Belles with the 4500 from Crites along with the tweeter upgrade from him as well. I cannot tell you how much the improvement was due to the xover and how much was due to the tweeter, but it was a very noticeable one. They sounded good before the upgrade and great afterwards. As for the 200hz "shelf", I don't notice it at all, but am an admittedly lousy "critical listener"! I rarely turn my sub on, but I did build a pair of Lil' Mike's 25hz tapped horn subs and cross them over just under 100hz. Very exaggerated bass if I go any higher. Leads me to not buy into the 200hz concern. Just my 2 cents. Get them in and get them set up. Then listen more and read less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 My Heresy IIs had that shelf. It was intolerable. My Heresy IIIs don't seem to have that problem. If these Belles do, then I guess I will HAVE to got with the ALK crossover. If they don't then the choice less definite. But the tweeter upgrade seems to be a no brainer. I am just trying to do as much preparation/research BEFORE I get them. I am very impatient! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
consistent Posted March 10, 2018 Share Posted March 10, 2018 Hi I have owned Heresy, Cornwall, LS, Forte II and KHorn and can say without question as USNRET states, the room will have the biggest impact on whatever you will drive in it! I have spent a ton of time and money on changing rooms to be more acoustically stable. Second by a nose is the crossover, once Klipsch decided to use second and third order networks, their speakers began to sing much better. I have just spend 3 months re-designing a Cornwall and a network to suit. I can say without question you can get much more detail with any Klipsch speaker by tweaking the x-over to suit room and taste. On the price you are looking at to pay, way too much in my book. See if you can find another pair and keep some money aside to upgrade network and horns if you can - you will be amazed at what you can do. Whatever you decide have fun and enjoy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kink56 Posted March 10, 2018 Author Share Posted March 10, 2018 Let me put it this way, of all the speakers I have ever owned, only Klipsch speakers have needed modifications to satisfy me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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