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Value of Belle Klipsch other questions.


kink56

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33 minutes ago, kink56 said:

Yep $1000 for you to deliver, plus expenses PLUS the cost of having them reveenered.  Well as it turns out, had I done that, I would have never bothered to have them reveenered, because the sad news for me:

 

I never understood the objection to the sound of Klipsch based on the fact I really like my Forte I. But NOW I get it!   The Belles have several problems.

1. They have a bass resonance, you cannot hear the cabinets per se, but you can hear the effect they have on music. Sometimes drum sound like cardboard boxes for example .

2. They ARE "shouty" in the midrange. Not only that, they are also "chesty" and "hooded".   As a singer goes up and down the scales, they go from chesty to nasal. And I do not mean that it is the characteristic of the singer, as ALL the vocals I have auditioned do this. It is frequency dependent. It matters not whether I am using the original mid drivers or the new 55-Gs.  

3. Acoustic instruments change in size depending on frequency.  An acoustic guitar does not hang in the soundstage in its natural size, instead it grows to gigantic proportions in the lower registers and shrinks back down in the higher registers.  Sometimes the guitar body seems 20 feet long. 

 

I have to say these are the worst sounding speakers I have ever owned based on "audiophile" criteria.  Now if you want to ROCK OUT, then hey, they are great.  But the "sweet spot" reveals a host of severe problems as it comes to reproducing music.  Give me my Rogers Studio 1As any day. Yes, and even my Forte Is trounce these Belles in just about every department.  They are a fine piece of furniture that happen to have speakers built in.  Much like (but not as bad) as those expensive console stereos of the 60s. (We called them "sound coffins" back in the day).

 

While it is true that great speakers will reveal weaknesses in the audio chain, top notch electronics will also expose greater differences in speakers as well. 

I had a pair and really didn't like them. I tried tube pre and power amps, SS, vintage receivers. Now I have heard Sunburnwillys 5 Belles and they were spectacular.  I love LaScalas though,  the 2's are smokin in my house.

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I even prefer my Heresy III over these.  I see here all the time that Belles and LaScalas sound the same.  Again, they may if only certain parameters are important to the listener.  It is what one listens for and what is important that determines how something sounds to them.   Somethings go unnoticed to one person and other things go unnoticed to another person.  Some people (non audiophile/stereo people) can't tell the difference between a clock radio and a marching band in a parade.  I KNOW there are things I do not notice in sound systems because they are either things I have not become aware of yet and have not trained my brain to listen for, OR I don't care about certain aspects. 

 

Some say the Belles image great, but have those people taken into account how the size of an instrument chances with pitch and tone?  They probably don't care or they have not ever paid attention to that. And that aspect is PART of imaging and soundstage.   There is more to imaging than left, right and center--even more than just height, width and depth.   There is size, relative size and consistent size among other things, like micro-dynamics etc. 

 

I guess the question should be "Would Michael Fremer like it?" If so, then it is probably damned good. 

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I have ordered some ALK Universal crossovers, hoping that will take care of some of these problems.  If I could get the Belles to perform at least as well as the Forte Is or even the Heresy IIIs then I would be okay. 

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2 hours ago, kink56 said:

An acoustic guitar does not hang in the soundstage in its natural size, instead it grows to gigantic proportions in the lower registers and shrinks back down in the higher registers.  Sometimes the guitar body seems 20 feet long. 

 

This isn’t typical for the Belle. 

 

If these are used and new to you have you verified that all the drivers are connected properly and in correct polarity with the crossover especially if someone has been modifying and messing with them.

 

miketn

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3 hours ago, kink56 said:

2. They ARE "shouty" in the midrange. Not only that, they are also "chesty" and "hooded".   As a singer goes up and down the scales, they go from chesty to nasal. And I do not mean that it is the characteristic of the singer, as ALL the vocals I have auditioned do this. It is frequency dependent. It matters not whether I am using the original mid drivers or the new 55-Gs.  

 

3. Acoustic instruments change in size depending on frequency.  An acoustic guitar does not hang in the soundstage in its natural size, instead it grows to gigantic proportions in the lower registers and shrinks back down in the higher registers.  Sometimes the guitar body seems 20 feet long. 

I appreciate your honesty in describing what you hear.  The Belles are iconic and there may be some disagreement from others in how they sound.  I am trying to listen "with" you, as I had La Scala and Khorns which share the same mid/HF sections.

 

Like you I am a very critical listener and I don't relate well to specs, I listen to musical instruments.  In the highlighted section ^^^ I am trying to figure out what could be happening that would make the sound exaggerate that way.  I don't remember my LS or Khorns doing that.  I wonder a couple of things, but I only want to address one of them right now.

 

Most important is the crossover, as someone else had mentioned.  It sounds like there is an overlap between the woofer and mid which is doubling up on the low range of the guitar.  Then as the frequency goes up the HF is getting filtered out.  I do remember there is a hole in the 4500 to 6000 Hz range with the stock Type AA.  That's why the A/4500 was made to compensate, but you had to use a different tweeter because the OEM K-77 would blow up if run that low, it was only good down to 6000 Hz.

 

At this point it sounds like you are committed to the ALK crossovers.  I don't think they will solve all the characteristics you mentioned but it should tell you right away if the tonal balance is restored.

 

I'm hoping you can make these sound good to you.

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I am going back and forth with the midrange drivers to no avail.   I can even REMOVE the midrange drivers and a lot of my problems still exist. I think most of it lies in the bass bin.  The backs are stapled on. If they were screwed on, I would try some cabinet deadening tactics.    There is this upper bass/lower midrange excitement that plays like a droning note with most music.   It is almost like a one note thump on a cheap automotive subwoofer but about 2-3 octaves higher. 

 

I unplug the bass drivers and all I get is a transistor radio sound.   Similar drivers are used throughout the original Klipsch speakers. Cabinets and horns are the biggest differences in the mids and tweeters.   I am not so concerned with the tweeters. I think the problem lies in the cabinets more than anything. 

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20 hours ago, wvu80 said:

I appreciate your honesty in describing what you hear.  The Belles are iconic and there may be some disagreement from others in how they sound.  I am trying to listen "with" you, as I had La Scala and Khorns which share the same mid/HF sections.

 

Like you I am a very critical listener and I don't relate well to specs, I listen to musical instruments.  In the highlighted section ^^^ I am trying to figure out what could be happening that would make the sound exaggerate that way.  I don't remember my LS or Khorns doing that.  I wonder a couple of things, but I only want to address one of them right now.

 

Most important is the crossover, as someone else had mentioned.  It sounds like there is an overlap between the woofer and mid which is doubling up on the low range of the guitar.  Then as the frequency goes up the HF is getting filtered out.  I do remember there is a hole in the 4500 to 6000 Hz range with the stock Type AA.  That's why the A/4500 was made to compensate, but you had to use a different tweeter because the OEM K-77 would blow up if run that low, it was only good down to 6000 Hz.

 

At this point it sounds like you are committed to the ALK crossovers.  I don't think they will solve all the characteristics you mentioned but it should tell you right away if the tonal balance is restored.

 

I'm hoping you can make these sound good to you.

 

Just to clarify - Belles do not share the same mid/hi sections as KHorn and LS. The Belle mid horn is smaller in length and width than the mid horn used in both the KHorn and LS. Belle cabinet is shallower than the LS. Drivers the same, yes; horns, no.

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Yes, got it on driver vs horn.    Well I am going to try a tube amp, the Dynaco ST70 rebuilt by Chris Keller.  So, I will give that a shot too.  I may as well do my best to enjoy them, I doubt they will sell anyway. 

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