Jump to content

Belle Review


kink56

Recommended Posts

This is coming from a guy who loves his Forte I with Crites crossover and Ti tweeters and a stock set of Heresy IIIs.   I HAVE a great stereo pair of ENTEC subwoofers so bass extension is not the issue. These Belles also have AA crossovers that have been Sonicapped. And I have installed Crites C120 tweeters and A-55-K midrange drivers.  I have ordered ALK Universal crossovers but won't see those for 8 weeks.  I have tried 3 power amps (Threshold S300II, Electron Kinetics Eagle 2C, Crown Power Line 3) and 3 preamps (Crown Straight Line 2, Threshold FET-10He, Xiang Sheng 728A tube preamp). The Xiang Sheng and Crown Power Line 3 sound the best, but still not good, compared to my Forte I. It has been suggested I get a tube power amp, so I ordered a PrimaLuna Prologue 5.  My review of the Belles so far, which and be also read on the Steve Hoffman forums:

 

 
I got my Belle Klipsch delivered on Friday. I have been listening intensely and often since then.

I never understood the objection to the sound of Klipsch based on the fact I really like my Forte I. But NOW I get it! The Belles have several problems.

1. They have a bass resonance, you cannot hear the cabinets per se, but you can hear the effect they have on music. Sometimes drums sound like cardboard boxes for example. There is a specific frequency range in which they do.

2. They ARE "shouty" in the midrange. Not only that, they are also "chesty" and "hooded". As a singer goes up and down the scales, they go from chesty to nasal. And I do not mean that it is the characteristic of the singer, as ALL the vocals I have auditioned do this. It is frequency dependent. It matters not whether I am using the original mid drivers or the new 55-Gs. (It only takes 5 minutes to switch them out back and forth).

3. Acoustic instruments change in size depending on frequency. An acoustic guitar does not hang in the soundstage in its natural size, instead it grows to gigantic proportions in the lower registers and shrinks back down in the higher registers. Sometimes the guitar body seems 20 feet long.


I have to say these are the worst sounding speakers I have ever owned based on "audiophile" criteria. Now if you want to ROCK OUT, then hey, they are great. But the "sweet spot" reveals a host of severe problems as it comes to reproducing music. Give me my Rogers Studio 1As any day. Yes, and even my Forte Is trounce these Belles in just about every department. They are a fine piece of furniture that happen to have speakers built in. Much like (but not as bad) as those expensive console stereos of the 60s. (We called them "sound coffins" back in the day).

It pissed me off because it is not like one can sell them easily as they weight 125 lbs each. I bought them without hearing them, because, well there are none to hear anywhere in AZ. And secondly I really LIKE the sound of the Klipsch Forte speakers. They are horns too.
 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I consider the Klipsch Forte' to be one of the best balanced speakers Klipsch has ever produced and owned a pair for over 12 years before going to the true Heritage line of speakers.  I have owned a couple of pairs of Belle's but switched to Klipschorn's and La Scala's but feel your assessment is not fair since they were not in their original factory configuration (they are not Belle's anymore with all the changes).  Sonicaps (sonicrap) are cheap and not a worthy replacement for a good quality paper in oil capacitor, also the K-77M has a different timbre' than the C120.  Maybe try an unmolested pair and see if there are any differences in the overall tonal response.

 

Also I did not see what you were using as a source.  Remember your system is only as good as your weakest link.  If you were listening to streamed MP3 files I can certainly understand why they would sound like crap.

  • Like 3
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I certainly don't want to get into an issue with what someone hears in his system with what he has and how they are configured. He thinks they sound like crap. Well and good. Could it be a room issue ?! Belles and Forte are two different beasts -- 

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, richieb said:

I certainly don't want to get into an issue with what someone hears in his system with what he has and how they are configured. He thinks they sound like crap. Well and good. Could it be a room issue ?! Belles and Forte are two different beasts -- 

Belles did not work in my house/rooms where as LaScala 1's and 2's were/are splendid. Way too many variables to blame the speaker

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Hard for me to give a fair comment. But for me, I felt the Forte was the worse Klipsch speaker I had heard.  I had them in two different rooms. Unmodified and modified. I tried both Sonicaps and tweeter diaphragms. I felt modifications made them worse.  I thought I may not be a fan of titanium diaphragm. Until I heard Faital and B&C.  Now here is why my assessment may not be fair.  I run a ttls with my "Belle" Bass bin, I have tried the Eliptrac/B&C combo and K402/B&C combo.  All of that as a modified Belle was better than any speaker I have tried.  Now that being said,  I really enjoy my Heresies and Cornwalls with nothing more than Dayton 1% caps installed.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I am sorry I was not clear. My original review was with original drivers. The Sonicaps were already installed however. The replacement drivers did not alleviate the main issues I am having.    I mentioned the new drivers because there seems to be a lot of people recommending them (I started another thread about those drivers in anticipation of getting the Belles).   I just wanted to say the problems I am having related to either the original or the new drivers.  

 

I have on order a tube power amp, the  PrimalLuna Prologue Five since almost EVERYONE says "don't judge a Heritage Klispch until you hear them through a tube amp!"   I also have the highly recommended ALK Universal crossovers on order, ETA 6-8 weeks.      The Crites crossover and Ti tweeters slightly improved a great Forte 1. I tried the Ti midrange diaphragms and did not like them. I am told a crossover point change is needed to optimize them, so I took them out.       I am fearful that a tube amp will not address this monotone upper bass/lower midrange resonance that obliterates the soundstage and nuances of recordings.   If anything, the ALK crossovers may address this problem. 

 

ALL good speakers are placement and room sensitive.  But I have never had such difficulty as I have had with these. And inserting ANY speaker I have on hand immediately relieves me of these issues.   I put the Forte Is back in yesterday and it was instantaneous relief, and I was not all that careful about placement for the brief experiment.   I put the Forte Is back in just to make sure I was not going crazy. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Once again, comparing Forte to Belle is not playing in the same ballpark.  I am simply saying that your room and your ears and your brain play with and appreciate the Forte more.  I would wager that you will experience the same bias toward the Forte over the Belle even with a tube amp configuration.  I have had/currently own Forte 1, Forte 2, Belle, La Scala, Khorn, Cornwall 1, Cornwall 2, LSI, LSI splits, Heresy 1, Heresy 2, Chorus 2 and numerous outstanding SS amps/receivers/preamps and lots of Mcintosh gear, both SS and tube.  I have (sort of) settled on a configuration that fits my room, my ears, my brain, my music, etc, etc. and that decision has taken an enormous amount of experimentation and configuration changes.

  • Like 3
  • Thanks 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't think of Heritage as "Rocking out" speakers OP... I think they do acoustic/jazzy/orchestration phenomenally. If I was purely a rocker, I would have chose a different Klipsch speaker.

 

That being said OP, if the belle (with its smaller squawker lense) is not to your liking I don't think any Heritage speaker will satisfy your personal tastes.

 

There could be several issues that are compromising your liking to this new experience, including the fact that your ear/brain are just not used to such a revealing speaker.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

You should try (if haven't you already) some Cornwall IIs or IIIs. The very large front baffle means that the midrange is noticeably smoother than the LaScala/Belle design. It's worth remembering that the "midrange" really begins about 300 Hz, so almost any woofer is involved with the lower octaves. The Cornwall, with its direct-radiating K-33, is simply more open and pleasant in the midrange than the two-fold-too-short bass horns of the LaScala/Belle.

 

The Corns' K-600/K-601 is not the greatest mid ever, but at moderate volumes it's pleasant enough. The K-79 tweeter is, IMO, much better than the older K-77.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

2 hours ago, Schu said:

I don't think of Heritage as "Rocking out" speakers OP... I think they do acoustic/jazzy/orchestration phenomenally. If I was purely a rocker, I would have chose a different Klipsch speaker.

 

That being said OP, if the belle (with its smaller squawker lense) is not to your liking I don't think any Heritage speaker will satisfy your personal tastes.

 

All "Heritage" Klipsch speakers are not the same, I think that's pretty obvious.  That term is tossed around loosely, but blanket statements such as the above are simply misleading..  Khorns, La Scala, Belle, Cornwall, Heresy are true "Heritage".    Want to "rock out" with Heritage?  Get a pair of La Scala or Khorns or maybe Cornwall.  Want more laid back sound, but able to crank too?  Get Belles.  Want great vocals and jazz, get good Heresy.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Let's see this is what I listen to:

King Crimson

Miles Davis

Tchaikovsky violin concerto in D major by Heifetz

Talking Heads

Bob Dylan

Elvis Presley

Sarah Vaughn

Just about anything on the ECM label (playing an ECM station right now via Spotify on my Cambridge CXN v2). 

Steely Dan

Leo Kottke

Led Zeppelin

you get the idea, without getting into artists that are not readily recognized by just about anybody. 

 

So how is it that any of the other speakers I've owned do all these things well, but when it comes to Klipsch I have to choose a different model depending on what kind of music I want to play?   I HAVE Heresy III, and Forte I and I have had Cornwall II and Heresy II.   So, it is not like I am a newbie with Klispch.  I was expecting the bass of the Heresy, but with a liquid and open midrange with the Belles.  I did not expect the cardboard sounding resonances however.   A GOOD speaker is neutral to the point it can do ANY kind of music well. 

 

As far as being accustomed to a particular sound, here are some of the speakers I have owned and loved:

ProAc Doublette

ProAc Super Tower

Rogers Studio 1

Rogers Studio 1A

NHT 2.5

NHT Super One

 

Others not so much:

Klipsch SB-3 (department store sound)

Paradigm Studio 20 V3 (duller than dishwater) 

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Where there is probably something amiss... perhaps the sonicaps is a good place to start along with room treatments.

 

With the larger horn loaded mid driver speakers I can usually always feel the pressure wave when the forward nature of the music is being pushed... how loud do you listen?

 

As an example, I have a sweet spot in db output that fits my listening space (usually around 80dBm +/-5db).

 

Fwiw, King Crimson sounds great on my LS's... as long as I don't try and push the decibels. When I do push the output, the presentation gets distorted and strident and I blame the mastering as these speakers expose everything.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can dig it. That is why ALK universals are on the way.    But the concept that PIO (paper in oil) caps are better than polypropylene is questionable to me.  I know PIO caps have a sentimental or nostalgic following. But they are not consistent or as stable as mylar or polypro. As far as being the best choice of polypro, I agree, one could do better than Sonicaps.  

 

BTW Shu, how are you liking your EAT C Sharp? I've hear a lot of good things about this turntable. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

23 minutes ago, kink56 said:

 

 

BTW Shu, how are you liking your EAT C Sharp? I've hear a lot of good things about this turntable. 

 

So far so good... I am having some very slight sibilance issue that I can not seem to track down via mechanical set up. It is slight but very annoying to me so I need to try a different cartridge (using a denon 103r currently) that might help cure this issue and the lack of micro detail that I am also experiencing. I am also going to try an adjustable load phono pre as I am not sure how good the NBS pre is in comparison to a stand alone unit. I am also experiencing a lot of static on my LP's even though I have never had this issue with any of the other tables I've owned... could possibly be related to the fact that the C Sharp has a platter surface made from record vinyl.

 

For certain, the mid and LF range is spectacular with this table/setup... It really is, it just need more balance so I am satisfied.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...