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LaScala's and Tubes.


SonicSeeker

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What I like about NP is his outside the box thinking and implementation thereof. I mean he is using 700 watt/40amp industrial transistors and working them into a great sounding audio circuit. Much like his First Watt SIT amps he designs from fresh thinking that few solid state designers do. And I like he shares most everything and contributes to the DIY community. Now with this amp coming from Pass Labs he states three or four design criteria but goes on to say its the property of Pass Labs and takes it no further. It's rated at 25 watts but the damn thing will play 100 watts at 2 ohms which is unheard of. It's been two weeks and it seems to have settled  in nicely after being a bit woolly early on. Class A so its runs warm but not hot, my F3 runs considerably warmer. It plays much bigger than the F3, much better balanced from top to bottom and crushed it on the bottom end.

As I look back at the numerous amps I've owned it now reminds me of the single ended 45 watt Audio Mirror monoblocks running 4x  6c33 Russian nuclear reactors which produced the biggest soundstage I've experienced. And as you know 45 watts is Huge for single ended amps. The 25 fits right in that sound envelope. And i said in a previous post neither me or my wife have ever heard the LaScalas' sound as well balanced, full, satisfyiinly deep bass and a sound front that goes literally from wall to wall. i listened to them for several days without missing the Jubes a bit. Its a great sounding amp in other words. 

I can go into further comparisons in a PM if you like -- 

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Guest wdecho
25 minutes ago, richieb said:

What I like about NP is his outside the box thinking and implementation thereof. I mean he is using 700 watt/40amp industrial transistors and working them into a great sounding audio circuit. Much like his First Watt SIT amps he designs from fresh thinking that few solid state designers do. And I like he shares most everything and contributes to the DIY community. Now with this amp coming from Pass Labs he states three or four design criteria but goes on to say its the property of Pass Labs and takes it no further. It's rated at 25 watts but the damn thing will play 100 watts at 2 ohms which is unheard of. It's been two weeks and it seems to have settled  in nicely after being a bit woolly early on. Class A so its runs warm but not hot, my F3 runs considerably warmer. It plays much bigger than the F3, much better balanced from top to bottom and crushed it on the bottom end.

As I look back at the numerous amps I've owned it now reminds me of the single ended 45 watt Audio Mirror monoblocks running 4x  6c33 Russian nuclear reactors which produced the biggest soundstage I've experienced. And as you know 45 watts is Huge for single ended amps. The 25 fits right in that sound envelope. And i said in a previous post neither me or my wife have ever heard the LaScalas' sound as well balanced, full, satisfyiinly deep bass and a sound front that goes literally from wall to wall. i listened to them for several days without missing the Jubes a bit. Its a great sounding amp in other words. 

I can go into further comparisons in a PM if you like -- 

That amp has a damping factor of 500 so one would expect really good bass. Being reviewed by 6moons, A work in progress. conservatively rated at 30/60 but puts out 90/150 wpc into 8/4 ohms.  

 

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/passlabs3/1.html

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I bought a dared vp 20.... New in 2005 and I'm using

 

A Conrad Johnson pv 7 pre....

 

My thoughts now are either going single ended...

 

Or go for more power...using a vintage tube amp...

 

And as for trying anything else ... I have not..

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Guest wdecho

You have a great PP amplifier in the dared. I do not believe going with more power will make any difference, if so it will the design and not more power. Definitely SE if you want to experience a difference. They do sound different. Personally I enjoy both but probably lean more to SE  than PP in an amplifier. There are trade offs between the two. PP cancels out 2nd harmonic and is becomes 3rd harmonic at clipping whereas SE is more 2nd harmonic and clips more softly. You can see it with a scope and it is not noticeable and probably not even heard with 5 or 6 watt SE tube amplifier using our speakers. Using a scope with a sine wave at clipping a PP will clip sharply whereas a SE sine wave signal at clipping is more subtly and rounded.  3rd harmonic clipping is like fingernails on a blackboard at clipping. Unless you have a extraordinarily large room a SE with 5 or 6 watts will never clip anyway.

 

I cannot say whether you will like a SE over your PP. It becomes a personal preference and subjective thing. 

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With the LaScalas I have read, on here I believe, that there is a large variable in the impedance curve.I am very interested in SET amps but want to know what works and what doesn't from those who have tried. I think big iron is very important with low power SET amps, as well as other tube amps I suppose.

There are so many choices out there and it seems almost everything with okay build quality gets great reviews.

I have spent a bit based on great reviews and I have been disappointed on more than one occasion.

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Guest wdecho

I have given much thought on impedance curves using SET amplifiers with my LaScala's. LaScala's are not known for great bass from 100hz down of which I have a really big good sub for that deficiency I cannot give any advice on a retail SET having never bought one. I am a diy'er and have built all my amplifiers which number over 20 complete ones at the present time. Iron does matter in a SET but I have found $30 apiece OPT's for the Edcor brand plenty good enough for me. I did splurge and purchase what I call expensive OPT's on my SET 300B but really did not hear that much difference from the Edcor's I originally installed. Edcor builds really decent transformers. I am sure they build for many retail amplifiers who buy the bare end caps and paint them black. If I were interested in a retail SET I would probably look at one of the Chinese offerings such as Yaqin. Great value for resonable cost. Maybe someone can share their experience on a Chinese SET on this forum. 

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So explain this echo - how does an amp such as XA25 with only a rated 25 watts produce such a huge, deep, tight bass response as compared to other amps I've owned, UL tubes at 60 watts that seem anemic in comparison. Because you always hear the "tube watts play much bigger that SS wattIs" which is either sales BS or like any other product the skill of the design. it the huge power supply, capacitance or other design factors? I don't so much believe a Class A design speaks for this ? There is so much to this I can't really grasp. 

 

 

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I've since traded my LaScalas for Belles. The amps I tried include:

 

PP:

McIntosh MC30

Marantz 8B

Quicksilver Monos (8417 amps modified to run KT90s)

Dynaco ST35

 

SE:

CazTech SET845

Quicksilver SET300B

Almarro A205a

 

My favorite is definitely the 845 based CazTech SET845 with 18wpc. Definitely takes control of things.

 

Just my opinion.

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14 minutes ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

I've since traded my LaScalas for Belles. The amps I tried include:

 

PP:

McIntosh MC30

Marantz 8B

Quicksilver Monos (8417 amps modified to run KT90s)

Dynaco ST35

 

SE:

CazTech SET845

Quicksilver SET300B

Almarro A205a

 

My favorite is definitely the 845 based CazTech SET845 with 18wpc. Definitely takes control of things.

 

Just my opinion.

 

I'm not surprised. If I was head back to tubes it would be the 845, 211 or 6c33, all single ended. But I do believe you can achieve damn near if not equal to the same sonic with HQ SS amp. And other than the 6c those tubes can get quite expensive and to implement them correctly takes a fairly high $$$ amp. And another Huge plus for me is the absolute silent noise floor I have with my current setup, something that can be hard to find with high power tubes. 

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Guest wdecho
2 hours ago, richieb said:

 

So explain this echo - how does an amp such as XA25 with only a rated 25 watts produce such a huge, deep, tight bass response as compared to other amps I've owned, UL tubes at 60 watts that seem anemic in comparison. Because you always hear the "tube watts play much bigger that SS wattIs" which is either sales BS or like any other product the skill of the design. it the huge power supply, capacitance or other design factors? I don't so much believe a Class A design speaks for this ? There is so much to this I can't really grasp. 

 

 

All of the above, big huge power supply section, actually much more power than 25 watts and large 500 damping factor along with those huge out transistors. Outstanding bass is not a tube amplifier strong point, especially for SET's. You give up the bottom end, not that you will not have good bass, but for such lovely mids and highs that hang in the air. A well designed class A SS can really achieve much the same as a SET depending on whether it is PP or SE. Class A is the most linear of all classes of amplification. Someone with outstanding hearing can really tell the difference. When one says tube watts play much bigger they are generally referring to more than their the stated watts. Not a big factor with our very efficient speakers as it would be with the average 85db speakers. That XA25 plays like 90 watts into 8 ohms with 1% distortion which on bass you will not hear especially for short transients. The rating of 25 watts is at the published distortion range. You have a gem of an amplifier. You can get an amplifier that can sound as good as tubes in class A SS to my old ears at least. The XA25 is a PP design and not SE. The SIT-2 and SIT-1 were cutting edge SE class A rivaling a SET 300B amplifier. I am talking $35,000 and more 300B. You definitely  have reached the pinnacle of the latest amplification design in your new amplifier.

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23 hours ago, richieb said:

 

I'm not surprised. If I was head back to tubes it would be the 845, 211 or 6c33, all single ended. But I do believe you can achieve damn near if not equal to the same sonic with HQ SS amp. And other than the 6c those tubes can get quite expensive and to implement them correctly takes a fairly high $$$ amp. And another Huge plus for me is the absolute silent noise floor I have with my current setup, something that can be hard to find with high power tubes. 

 

I have no background noise issues with any of my listed SE amps.

 

Also, owning SE tube amps doesn't have to be expensive.

 

The Almarro A205a retailed for around $1K and uses EL84 outputs in SEP. In fact, that is the amp currently hooked up to the Belles now. :)

 

I've heard great things about the Musical Paradise MP-301 MK3 which can be decked out for less than $400 US and is a tube rollers dream.

 

Look at the SE offerings by Dennis Had that he sells on eBay. Great value, readily available tubes.

 

If you want to go PP, look at the Mike Sanders designed Quicksilver Horn Mono amps: $1,895 US, uses readily available and inexpensive tubes, no noise issues on 100db+ efficient speakers.

 

I've heard La Scalas, Klipschorns and Belles with a variety of SS amplification and none of it appealed to me.

 

That doesn't mean that the SS amps were bad, they just weren't my cup of tea.

 

If you prefer the sound of your current SS amp, I think that is great. To me, whatever audio path any of us takes is OK as long as we are listening to more wonderful music.

 

As always.....YMMV. :)

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1 minute ago, TubeHiFiNut said:

 

I have no background noise issues with any of my listed SE amps.

 

Also, owning SE tube amps doesn't have to be expensive.

 

The Almarro A205a retailed for around $1K and uses EL84 outputs in SEP. In fact, that is the amp currently hooked up to the Belles now. :)

 

I've heard great things about the Musical Paradise MP-301 MK3 which can be decked out for less than $400 US and is a tube rollers dream.

 

Look at the SE offerings by Dennis Had that he sells on eBay. Great value, readily available tubes.

 

If you want to go PP, look at the Mike Sanders designed Quicksilver Horn Mono amps: $1,895 US, uses readily available and inexpensive tubes, no noise issues on 100db+ efficient speakers.

 

I've heard La Scalas, Klipschorns and Belles with a variety of SS amplification and none of it appealed to me.

 

That doesn't mean that the SS amps were bad, they just weren't my cup of tea.

 

If you prefer the sound of your current SS amp, I think that is great. To me, whatever audio path any of us takes is OK as long as we are listening to more wonderful music.

 

As always.....YMMV. :)

 

Looking at list of amps you provided - 

- owned the Almarro 205, both versions. I liked both. Also owned its big brother 318b, you should give that a listen. Smokes the 205.

- listening to LS right now and looking at a Dennis Had KT66/88 sitting on a shelf. As quiet a tube amp as I've heard.

- owned QS Horn Monos, twice. If I'm going with tubes it would be single ended only. 

Just sold a pair of George Wright 3.5 ( 2a3's ) to a forum member which I really liked. In fact the 2a3 might be my favorite tube. As you see I've owned enough gear to have formed my opinion of how each of my speakers performs with each amp design. It's amazing how a well designed SS can not only replicate but surpass many tubes. Not all but many. As you know there is no perfect amp for everyone's speakers, room, ears, etc. There are things I liked about each amp I listed, some things I didn't. At the moment I've settled with an amp that's does far more things right than wrong. For me that might be key - finding the amp with the fewest objections. 

 

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26 minutes ago, richieb said:

 

Looking at list of amps you provided - 

- owned the Almarro 205, both versions. I liked both. Also owned its big brother 318b, you should give that a listen. Smokes the 205.

- listening to LS right now and looking at a Dennis Had KT66/88 sitting on a shelf. As quiet a tube amp as I've heard.

- owned QS Horn Monos, twice. If I'm going with tubes it would be single ended only. 

Just sold a pair of George Wright 3.5 ( 2a3's ) to a forum member which I really liked. In fact the 2a3 might be my favorite tube. As you see I've owned enough gear to have formed my opinion of how each of my speakers performs with each amp design. It's amazing how a well designed SS can not only replicate but surpass many tubes. Not all but many. As you know there is no perfect amp for everyone's speakers, room, ears, etc. There are things I liked about each amp I listed, some things I didn't. At the moment I've settled with an amp that's does far more things right than wrong. For me that might be key - finding the amp with the fewest objections. 

 

 

The "wild card" in all of this is, in my opinion, that the fewest objections will vary from listener to listener depending on our preferences, listening biases, etc. and how we translate what we hear into what we feel.

 

To me, music is emotional. The amps, speakers, etc. that best convey the emotions of the music I love are the "best" for me.

 

You may have different criteria...and that's OK. We all hear with our own ears, which our individual brain interprets and which we then connect with emotionally.

 

To the OP: This is why you should, IMHO, try to hear as many amps as you can on your speakers and in your home. See what you connect with. :)

 

As always.....YMMV. :)

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On 3/31/2018 at 10:36 AM, SonicSeeker said:

With the LaScalas I have read, on here I believe, that there is a large variable in the impedance curve.I am very interested in SET amps but want to know what works and what doesn't from those who have tried. I think big iron is very important with low power SET amps, as well as other tube amps I suppose.

There are so many choices out there and it seems almost everything with okay build quality gets great reviews.

I have spent a bit based on great reviews and I have been disappointed on more than one occasion.

It's impossible to rely on reviews or recommendations when making equipment choices.  SETs are less affected by speaker impedance variations than SEPs (unless they employ negative feedback).  One of the issues is the amplifier output impedance which is in series with the speaker impedance.  That's why trying an amp in your system is imperative.  If you want to experience quality SET sound without spending much, build a pair of Little Sweeties.  They offer extremely good synergy with K-horns, La Scalas, and Belles and maintain very low distortion even when the speaker impedance drops (I believe LSs only drop to around 3.8 ohms).  And, William is correct in saying that large opts are not usually worth the extra expense.  In my experience, it's rarely worth using them in flea power applications.

 

Maynard

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OP... think of it as crowd sourcing. The collective wisdom and experiential analysis in mass is not to be under estimated. Laws of averaging might not tell whether or not you will ultimately fall in love with something as personal as a tube amp/topology, but it will help you thru the weeds of marketing.

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On 3/31/2018 at 8:06 AM, wdecho said:

You have a great PP amplifier in the dared. I do not believe going with more power will make any difference, if so it will the design and not more power. Definitely SE if you want to experience a difference. They do sound different. Personally I enjoy both but probably lean more to SE  than PP in an amplifier. There are trade offs between the two. PP cancels out 2nd harmonic and is becomes 3rd harmonic at clipping whereas SE is more 2nd harmonic and clips more softly. You can see it with a scope and it is not noticeable and probably not even heard with 5 or 6 watt SE tube amplifier using our speakers. Using a scope with a sine wave at clipping a PP will clip sharply whereas a SE sine wave signal at clipping is more subtly and rounded.  3rd harmonic clipping is like fingernails on a blackboard at clipping. Unless you have a extraordinarily large room a SE with 5 or 6 watts will never clip anyway.

 

I cannot say whether you will like a SE over your PP. It becomes a personal preference and subjective thing. 

I have the la scalas , heresy , hi-sm heresy , and the Kg1..

 

Only 1 amp... So not sure where to go next..

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6 hours ago, MerkinMuffley said:

"CazTech SET845"

 

couldn't find this on the web. can you point to it? Thanks.

Canadian SET monoblocks. Uses the 845 tube. About 18 watts.

 

They ceased production some years back.

 

I still occasionally see pairs on the Net.

 

I've been considering getting one of the Line Magnetic LM-518ia 845 based amps to compare with the CazTechs.

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