Emotiva vs. Denon

[Alexander]

First off the Denon AVR-X3200W is great for the $700 I paid new for it. With that said we finally pulled out the Emotiva gear that had been boxed up since the move ~ a year ago and put in a rack. The sig bellow lists all of the equipment going back into service. So we fire up the Emotive and put in the CD Brothers in Arms (one of the standards I use). Holly cow Batman the forte II's came alive! What clarity and detail with the mids & highs and authority with the bottom end. So open an airy when compared to the Denon in direct mode no less. The forte II's were picked up after the Emotive gear was boxed so this was the first time they have been hooked up together. Now don't get me wrong, the Denon has a great sound at it's price point and probably not a fare comparison to a system that a single amp cost more than the AVR receiver itself.  Just wanted to share the moment with others that like the same stuff.

[Ceptorman]

I had the same experience. I had a 10 year old Yamaha AVR, it sounded good, but with the addition of an Emotiva XPA-2, HOLY crap my towers came to life. Much more detail, clarity, bass, even the kids were cleaner. I then added a Emo pre-amp and it had another sound benefit. I'm not saying AVRs are lacking, they just have a lot going on, and an amp just has to provide power, headroom has a huge benefit.

[teaman]

Yep. Adding the Emotiva amps brought my music to life. Definitely better control over the drivers resulting in better clarity and definitely better low end after adding the amps.

 

 

Tim

[willland]

Adding B&K, NAD, Acurus, Anthem, Emotiva, Sunfire, Marantz amps, all were a considerable improvement over just my Onkyo TX-SR705 driving my RF-63 system.  Kind of like going from a 200 cu in 6 cylinder to a 390 cu in 8 cylinder in a 68' Mustang.  Performance improvements from bottom to top.

 

Bill

[Ceptorman]

1 hour ago, willland said:

Adding B&K, NAD, Acurus, Anthem, Emotiva, Sunfire, Marantz amps, all were a considerable improvement over just my Onkyo TX-SR705 driving my RF-63 system.  Kind of like going from a 200 cu in 6 cylinder to a 390 cu in 8 cylinder in a 68' Mustang.  Performance improvements from bottom to top.

 

Bill

What amp would be the 429 Cobra Jet 

[Zen Traveler]

2 hours ago, willland said:

Adding B&K, NAD, Acurus, Anthem, Emotiva, Sunfire, Marantz amps, all were a considerable improvement over just my Onkyo TX-SR705 driving my RF-63 system.  Kind of like going from a 200 cu in 6 cylinder to a 390 cu in 8 cylinder in a 68' Mustang.  Performance improvements from bottom to top.

 

Bill

I saw this thread and wasn't going to respond until I saw that it seemed to be  a unanimous conclusion on a much discussed topic.

 

I can't argue that purchasing an external amp coul enhance your Home Theater, but the title is somewhat deceptive because you are considering amps in a mid-level Denon AVR to an external amp and calling a hands down winner between "Emotive and Denon."  Fwiw, I have driven the rig below with upper-end Denons and am currently. On paper the Emotiva is not delivering more current than the Denons I've been using and that is the science behind what drives the speakers.  

[willland]

8 hours ago, Ceptorman said:

What amp would be the 429 Cobra Jet 

Maybe a Krell or a Bryston.

 

Bill

[willland]

8 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

I can't argue that purchasing an external amp coul enhance your Home Theater, but the title is somewhat deceptive because you are considering amps in a mid-level Denon AVR to an external amp and calling a hands down winner between "Emotive and Denon."

Yes the title does "suggest" brand A verses brand B but the body of the post does explain things a bit more.  Definitely not near an apples to apples comparison which it appears is not the intention.  Now if the OP would have added this below then the title may be more accurate.

 

 

8 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

Fwiw, I have driven the rig below with upper-end Denons and am currently. On paper the Emotiva is not delivering more current than the Denons I've been using and that is the science behind what drives the speakers.  

Below is a simple but very good explanation why "headroom" from a better amp section can be beneficial.

https://www.soundandvision.com/content/denon-avr-4311ci-aperion-verus-grand

 

Excerpt from article below:

 

The AVR-4311CI is spec'd with a power output of 140 watts/channel and low-impedance drive capability, so in my opinion, you have no need for an external power amp.
 

Having said that, I will note that, in his review of the Verus Grand speakers, Tom Norton used the Parasound Halo A 51 power amp, which delivers 250Wpc into 8 ohms and 400Wpc into 4 ohms, so he was listening to them with more power than the Denon provides. Also, it's important to point out that a more-powerful amp typically operates in a lower region of its total power range with a given set of speakers, which means it behaves more linearly than an amp that operates closer to its maximum power level. Still, I have no doubt that the Aperions will sound, well, grand with the Denon.
 

 

Bill

 

[Alexander]

8 hours ago, Zen Traveler said:

I saw this thread and wasn't going to respond until I saw that it seemed to be  a unanimous conclusion on a much discussed topic.

 

I can't argue that purchasing an external amp coul enhance your Home Theater, but the title is somewhat deceptive because you are considering amps in a mid-level Denon AVR to an external amp and calling a hands down winner between "Emotive and Denon."  Fwiw, I have driven the rig below with upper-end Denons and am currently. On paper the Emotiva is not delivering more current than the Denons I've been using and that is the science behind what drives the speakers.  

I will be pulling out both  pairs of POA-4400's to do some fun testing, they haven't seen the light of day for around five years..

[willland]

2 minutes ago, Alexander said:

I will be pulling out both  pairs of POA-4400's to do some fun testing, they haven't seen the light of day for around five years..

There is a good chance that the 4400's will outperform your Emos if they are up to spec.  I have owned a Denon POA-1500 and many Denon PMA integrated amps from the 80's and they were wonderful amps with great control and punch with super detail.  

 

Looking forward to your A-B comparisons.

 

Bill

[Zen Traveler]

@willland Thanks for posting the pics and those do look nice. :} That said, here is a good thread I started on AVS back in the day and had quite a few knowledgeable people post in regard to my speaker situation: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1532635-would-i-benefit-external-amp.html

 

Btw, I am sure any of those amps would drive our speakers quite well, but there is a point of diminishing returns and the upper end Denons (as mentioned in your link) provide enough current to drive pretty much any speaker that Klipsch makes efficiently and to their full potential. 

25 minutes ago, Alexander said:

I will be pulling out both  pairs of POA-4400's to do some fun testing, they haven't seen the light of day for around five years..

Good luck. Also remember to level match the amps if you want an accurate comparison and it would help if someone else would do the switching, but most people don't care about actually doing all of this once they have found something they like.  

[Alexander]

22 minutes ago, willland said:

There is a good chance that the 4400's will outperform your Emos if they are up to spec.  I have owned a Denon POA-1500 and many Denon PMA integrated amps from the 80's and they were wonderful amps with great control and punch with super detail.  

 

Looking forward to your A-B comparisons.

 

Bill

Maybe I will also try bi-amping the forte II's, once with all 4400's and 4400's & XPA-1's. Something I was going to do about ten years ago with my Martin Logans and four 4400's.. 

[Zen Traveler]

30 minutes ago, willland said:

Having said that, I will note that, in his review of the Verus Grand speakers, Tom Norton used the Parasound Halo A 51 power amp, which delivers 250Wpc into 8 ohms and 400Wpc into 4 ohms, so he was listening to them with more power than the Denon provides. Also, it's important to point out that a more-powerful amp typically operates in a lower region of its total power range with a given set of speakers, which means it behaves more linearly than an amp that operates closer to its maximum power level. Still, I have no doubt that the Aperions will sound, well, grand with the Denon.

I also googled the Verus Grand speaker and they appear to be 8 to 10 dB less sensitive than Klipsch Speakers and are rated at 6 Ohm, which means they require more power to drive...That said, Tom still seems think the Denon 4311ci will drive them and there doesn't appear to be enough information on room size and seating distance which also could determine if an external amp would be beneficial. 

[willland]

1 minute ago, Zen Traveler said:

I also googled the Verus Grand speaker and they appear to be 8 to 10 dB less sensitive than Klipsch Speakers and are rated at 6 Ohm, which means they require more power to drive...That said, Tom still seems think the Denon 4311ci will drive them and there doesn't appear to be enough information on room size and seating distance which also could determine if an external amp would be beneficial. 

No doubt on my part that a flagship(or near flagship) Denon, Onkyo, Yamaha, etc. AVR will drive most, if not all Klipsch speakers, both past and present, to levels that will eventually prompt many to seek a good hearing aid company when the time is right.  My NAD T773 is a beast at 53+ pounds and I have no concerns whether it can drive my entire RF-63 system easily.

 

This statement below simplifies why adding an outboard amp to some systems is beneficial especially in a large room.

"Also, it's important to point out that a more-powerful amp typically operates in a lower region of its total power range with a given set of speakers, which means it behaves more linearly than an amp that operates closer to its maximum power level."

 

16 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said:

here is a good thread I started on AVS back in the day and had quite a few knowledgeable people post in regard to my speaker situation: http://www.avsforum.com/forum/91-audio-theory-setup-chat/1532635-would-i-benefit-external-amp.html

I have read that thread many times and do get it.  As a matter of fact that thread pops up often in a Google search about adding an amp to a system.

 

Bill

[Zen Traveler]

17 minutes ago, willland said:

This statement below simplifies why adding an outboard amp to some systems is beneficial especially in a large room.

"Also, it's important to point out that a more-powerful amp typically operates in a lower region of its total power range with a given set of speakers, which means it behaves more linearly than an amp that operates closer to its maximum power level."

Sure. The key point is not how the amp behaves (unless it's clipping)  but how much current one needs to drive their speakers (with appropriate headroom) at the volume they want to listen. Once those needs are met anything else won't be used or beneficial. Btw, I am not trying to talk anyone out of buying an external amp, just giving a second opinion on the need to have one.

 

[dtel]

5 hours ago, willland said:

Also, it's important to point out that a more-powerful amp typically operates in a lower region of its total power range with a given set of speakers, which means it behaves more linearly than an amp that operates closer to its maximum power level.

True, but it's somewhat the same train of thought about speakers.

 

A speaker with a certain performance at the rated wpc if efficient will have much less distortion at say 100db's.

Like the bass bins I use, rated at 300wpc @124 Db with acceptable distortion numbers, when I listen loud I might be using 2-3 watts, this drops the acceptable distortion rating to almost nothing, or very low.....................I would guess it works like that since it does not have to work as hard ?

[stoka]

Anybody has any experience with a Harman Kardon Signature 1.5 Amp?

Maybe compared the the Emotiva XPA line?

[nitrofan]

I have the Denon avr4311ci and yes adding a power amp did improve the sound of my lascalas 

[diamonddelts]

I had the former Flagship Onkyo TX-NR 1000  receiver which was rated at 150 watts per channel and it routinely went into protection mode with some of my large speaker setups. I would never allow any of today's receivers to power any speaker in my home. External amps sound so much better powering every speaker I have ever owned.

[Zen Traveler]

1 hour ago, diamonddelts said:

I had the former Flagship Onkyo TX-NR 1000  receiver which was rated at 150 watts per channel and it routinely went into protection mode with some of my large speaker setups. I would never allow any of today's receivers to power any speaker in my home.

Wow! 😳 If that was happening and the speakers were the culprit then you definitely needed an external amp...Otoh, I have driven the system below at high SPL with no distortion for 15 years and never came close to them shutting down with upper-end Denons that were rated for 4 Ohms. Fwiw, I think that making sure to get a power supply rated for the impedance of the speaker is key.