Zen Traveler Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 20 hours ago, Max2 said: Im not sure where the actual noise floor is when incorporating its power source on the Denon, but its not close to it. The pre side on the Denon isn't bad at all, but gaining a few DB on the noise floor will be something I welcome to aide in the blackness. I wonder if one can even differentiate between those levels and I guess the best test would be to level match the amp with the AVR, have somebody switch between the two and see if you could really hear a difference. Dunno, but if a person wants to buy an external amp they should because testing/comparing takes time and depending on opinion found on the internet is the easiest way to justify spending money. Btw, with nothing playing and the MV at "0" I can't hear anything with my ear a foot away from the speaker. Otoh, I have read about others connecting external amps and running into noise issues. That's my take. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5SS Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 I just unhooked my B&K 200.7 S2, from my 650 Ultra2’s and now they are being powered by my Denon 3400. If I am totally honest with myself, I noticed zero difference in sound quality, even when I tried very hard to talk myself into keeping the B&K in the rack. My room is very small though, ~ 12 x 14 and I only have the front 3 650’s hooked up to the Denon. Those are both major factors and another factor is that the 3400 bench tested very well, especially when not using all the channels of amplification. The way I see it, big room and driving more than 5 speakers? Add a 3 or 5 channel amp, to take most of the strain off the receiver. Another way to free up headroom is to cross over all speakers to ~ 80 hz, let a top-shelf receiver drive the speakers and add two monster subs to handle the low end. I love external amps but they can definitely be overkill in small rooms like mine. Once I move, I will probably be getting either the Monolith 3 or 5 channel amp. I just wanted to point out that room size and how the system is tuned plays a major role in the importance of having an external amp vs receiver. I also just picked up some Aperion 6T towers and the matching center Ztjis Thursday. I am loving them so far, even being driven just off my lowly Denon 3400😬 I can totally see speakers like Fortes, benefiting from an amp for two channel listening, especially in a big room at loud volumes. Every time willland mentions his RF-63’s, I jump on eBay to see if any are available. I miss mine dearly! He is just smarter than me, and kept his.. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Max2 Posted January 26, 2019 Share Posted January 26, 2019 56 minutes ago, Zen Traveler said: I wonder if one can even differentiate between those levels and I guess the best test would be to level match the amp with the AVR, have somebody switch between the two and see if you could really hear a difference. Dunno, but if a person wants to buy an external amp they should because testing/comparing takes time and depending on opinion found on the internet is the easiest way to justify spending money. Btw, with nothing playing and the MV at "0" I can't hear anything with my ear a foot away from the speaker. Otoh, I have read about others connecting external amps and running into noise issues. That's my take. Im not sure about a PRE vs AVR used as a Pre, but I will give my honest opinion once I get one. Its like the last missing link in my setup and I have gone this far, so no backing up now. My room is pretty dead with panels, so Im hoping the better numbers will prevail. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldtimer Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 23 hours ago, K5SS said: overkill Never, no such thing. Not on this forum. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted January 27, 2019 Share Posted January 27, 2019 On 1/26/2019 at 11:34 AM, K5SS said: I just unhooked my B&K 200.7 S2, from my 650 Ultra2’s and now they are being powered by my Denon 3400. If I am totally honest with myself, I noticed zero difference in sound quality, even when I tried very hard to talk myself into keeping the B&K in the rack I was just curious cause this statement had no qualifiers. So was this determined at normal listening levels, 60,70,80 db? Or, when you crank it up to 115 db for a few minutes you heard no difference ? If not that Denons a real winner. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K5SS Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 38 minutes ago, Fish said: I was just curious cause this statement had no qualifiers. So was this determined at normal listening levels, 60,70,80 db? Or, when you crank it up to 115 db for a few minutes you heard no difference ? If not that Denons a real winner. This is mainly due to the size of my room, I think, more than anything. I am sure there would be a difference at higher db’s but I normally listen to all movies in the -20 -15 range (watcing Oblivion at -15 now;) as that about loud as I can take and still be comfortable between the peaks. No real noticeable dynamic differences, at that volume really. I also don’t consider myself a super critical listener though and don’t take measurements so these just are just my impressions. Another aspect I like with just using a receiver is that my minimalist brain appreciates the simplicity of eliminating the 80lbs from my rack, reducing power usage, removing wires and “shortening” the path the audio signal has to travel. I’ll eventually have a dedicated room and it will 100% be getting a 5 + channel amplifier. When I get the room I have been dreaming of, I am “not going to leave any stone unturned”, as they say. I only bring this up, so I don’t come off as non-believer that many people can benefit from adding a dedicated amplifier, as that definitely isn’t the case. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fish Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 2 hours ago, K5SS said: Another aspect I like with just using a receiver is that my minimalist brain appreciates the simplicity of eliminating the 80lbs from my rack, reducing power usage, removing wires and “shortening” the path the audio signal has to travel. I can certainly understand that. The size of the room being pretty important. If you dont need/use additional power it's a lot less hassle. I use several avrs that do have pre outs , and amps setting unhooked for that very reason myself. I'm also of the opinion that at lower volumes amps have more similar sound. Pre amps are where I put my trust at all volumes. . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kidd Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 My experience 26 years ago I purchased a NAD amp with my KG5.2 and used it for 8 years , then the NAD quit , I replaced it with a cheap $150 Sony receiver and oh-my-god , the sound came alive , had no idea the Klipsch could sound so good I will never own another NAD again , that's for sure 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zen Traveler Posted January 28, 2019 Share Posted January 28, 2019 22 hours ago, Fish said: If not that Denons a real winner. I have been pleased with the upper-end Denons I've owned and am currently using. Prior to the AVR-4311ci we've had the AVR-4806ci and 4802R....Between those last ones I tried an AVR-3803 for several months and it worked okay at lower volume but distorted where I usually listened to music and we turned it down for a couple of months. Fwiw, I'm not looking forward to when this one finally bites the dust and guess I'll have to buy a couple more speakers and go Atmos. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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