Boxy sounding center channel?

[analogman]

I don't think anything Klipsch is going to mate well with anything VMPS

I live in Concord, CA and visited VMPS many times before they closed their doors ; - (, so I know their sound well

Had a friend in Clayton who kept all the big models in constant rotation in a room about the size of a glove compartment!

It's not that there is anything wrong about the Klipsch, but the voicing differences between how a Klipsch product "presents" and anything VMPS is GINORMOUS

I don't think it'll ever sound "right" in the middle of two VMPS towers - it is a cardboard box when compared to the former as for balls

 

 

[wvu80]

41 minutes ago, analogman said:

It's not that there is anything wrong about the Klipsch, but the voicing differences between how a Klipsch product "presents" and anything VMPS is GINORMOUS

 

I don't think it'll ever sound "right" in the middle of two VMPS towers - it is a cardboard box when compared to the former as for balls

You have a unique perspective since I don't think many of us have ever heard the VMPS towers.  Sometimes the simple answer is the most correct, although I'm hoping the new Integra gives the OP some options that might help him integrate the RC-64 into his existing setup.

+++

41 minutes ago, analogman said:

I live in Concord, CA and...(snip!)

 

Home of some of the best jazz in America and the home of one of my favorite drum corps, the Blue Devils.  Are you a fan?

[tubetwister]

Klipsch with VMPS? Well, I will have to argue that...for now. In some movie scenes (loud / noisy / gunshots) they all play together nicely. The spoken dialog in the center does "project" more from the RC-64 II. I will wait until the new Integra arrives, then do all of the tweaking and see what we end up with.

 

The soundstage all across the front when playing a recorded concert is stunning! The speakers blend together nicely, even though they are night and day different. Being a trumpet player (Maynard is my hero), music comes first, everything else is second.

 

The RC-64 has good bass impact, so much that it was a surprise. But nothing can rival the VMPS RM 2's for sheer musicality, and top to bottom response.

 

My first exposure to Altec-Lansing was with their "Voice of the Theater" speakers, with that huge 18" sectoral horn, and the massive 15" woofer. Those made a believer out of me, and everyone else who listened. A trumpet was playing behind me, but it was the Altec!

 

Fast forward to today, and I was made a believer in Klipsch when my wife and I listened to the 1812 Overture on a pair of RB-81 II's. The bells near the end were ringing, and my wife and I closed our eyes, and were instantly transported to the inside of an 18th century cathedral, where the bells were ringing. It was that real!

Edited April 9, 2018 by tubetwister

[wvu80]

5 hours ago, tubetwister said:

Klipsch with VMPS? Well, I will have to argue that...for now. In some movie scenes (loud / noisy / gunshots) they all play together nicely. The spoken dialog in the center does "project" more from the RC-64 II. I will wait until the new Integra arrives, then do all of the tweaking and see what we end up with.

 

The soundstage all across the front when playing a recorded concert is stunning! The speakers blend together nicely, even though they are night and day different. Being a trumpet player (Maynard is my hero), music comes first, everything else is second.

It takes horns to play horns!   Because I am also a huge fan of brass in jazz, orchestra and drum corps I can assure you the RC-64 is outstanding when it comes to accurate horn reproduction.

 

I heard Maynard a couple of times live, although he was a bit past his prime.  The best horn show I ever heard live was Doc Severenson.  The best trumpet player I ever heard was Maurice Andre, who gave the single best performance I've ever heard in my life.

 

Quote

 

The RC-64 has good bass impact, so much that it was a surprise. But nothing can rival the VMPS RM 2's for sheer musicality, and top to bottom response.

 

 

Getting back to the RC-64 boxy sound problem, I was able to by-pass my electronics and I think I have some answers.  Maybe observations are more accurate.

 

I ran the Marantz 6011 in Pure Direct mode, my Signal in was Dolby Digital from the Cable TV box which featured some dramatic music from the X-Files but mostly dialog from the center.  The Center XO was 60 Hz.

 

In Direct Mode the sound almost instantly went from rich and full to very little dynamics, a very dull sound at low to medium SPL.  I could make the RC-64 come alive but I had to crank the sound up to near Reference levels at maybe 75-80 db.  Especially at lower listening levels the Dynamic EQ and the Dynamic Volume produced a rich full sound at low to mid level listening levels.

 

I don't know if I ever heard a "boxy" sound but the RC-64 was very unimpressive at lower listening levels in Direct mode.  With the sound enhancements enabled (even All Channel Stereo) the RC-64 is as good as I've ever heard.  And when I cranked it up, either in Dolby Digital or Pure Direct there did not seem to be any limit to the good quality sound.  It never topped out or sound compressed even at Reference levels.

 

@tubetwister because of the different types of speakers you will be using if it doesn't sound good right away with the Integra, I suggest you experiment with raising the SPL of the RC-64.  I can control that with the Marantz using Dialog Enhancement, which does nothing more than allow you to raise the Db to the center by 3, 6, 12, and 18 db.  FYI I had mine set to 0 db for all my listening tests described above.

 

In honor of your preference for brass:

 

[tubetwister]

Thanks for the video! Cool, and they can sing too. Most musicians can sing simply because they have good ears for correctly being in tune.

 

I selected the Dynamic Compression feature in my Blu-Ray player, an older Panasonic. It seems to help. The bottom octave, maybe below 100 hz, could still be tweaked a bit. But sounding much better than before. My NAD is firing all speakers in the 9.2 setup...just does not respond to remote control inputs anymore. Thus the Integra will be here Thursday. I'm tempted to install my 10 band EQ (Dynaco SE-10, kit built) on the center and play with it. I'd bet it could be cleaned up with just a little effort.

 

During the white/pink noise level testing, the difference between the RC-64 II and the VMPS's was noticeable, but not in a bad way. The Klipsch was just a bit more forward in presence.

 

Both the side and rear surrounds are RB 81 /61. Awesome sound!!! I like the 81's so well that it is a waste not having them as the L & R speakers.

 

I saw Maynard several times, when he was in his prime. Saw Doc, Bill Chase, and recently saw Wayne Bergeron. Wayne is the #1 go to trumpet player in the country. ABC payed him $10,000 to do a special for them. One nights work!

 

Watch and listen to Wayne Bergeron "Oh Holy Night". It will make your eyes water. Wayne toured with Maynard.

 

[wvu80]

42 minutes ago, tubetwister said:

I saw Maynard several times, when he was in his prime. Saw Doc, Bill Chase, and recently saw Wayne Bergeron. Wayne is the #1 go to trumpet player in the country. ABC payed him $10,000 to do a special for them. One nights work!

 

Watch and listen to Wayne Bergeron "Oh Holy Night". It will make your eyes water. Wayne toured with Maynard.

You saw Bill Chase?  Wow!  About the time I discovered him he had just died in a plane wreck in 1974.  I used to listen to Chase (Chase) on the 8-track player in my van.  He also played with Maynard.

 

As for Wayne Bergeron I didn't know he toured with Maynard.  I've known Wayne's work for a while, in particular for his work on The Incredibles.  His bio said he helped to design the Yamaha YTR 8335LA.  I had bought a YTR 8345 (reverse lead pipe) for my son who was in HS at the time.

 

For the record, I am not a musician, I am a dumb drummer with a love for big hornlines.  The big horn sound is why I got into Klipsch speakers, nothing does horns better than the large live sound that Klipsch can provide.

 

Thanks for the Youtube vid of Wayne Bergeron.  I had not heard that one before, thanks!

[rebuy]

I'm gonna behave, I'm gonna behave....

[tubetwister]

After enabling the dynamic compression setting on the Blu-ray player, it helped with the male voice boominess. The speaker(RC 64 II) is awesome, very dynamic with huge impact.

We will do some serious EQ in hopes of getting everything where we want it to be.

[a.quvist]

On a side note here, has anyone tried swapping out the stock foam inside the RC64II vs polyfill? Could the stock foam be open cell foam or just there to take up volume? 

[Bala]

 

Hi,

I am electrical engineer, so know something on frequency, crossover, response etc. Not an audiophile, but assume I have good ears. I undergo audiometry tests regularly for official purpose. I also have the habit of reading the posts on speakers which my family hates… knowingly that I will not buy anything new.

I had KEF LS50, R200c, wharfedale diamond subwoofer home theater along with Klipsch RF62II, RC62II (changed from RC52II to RC62II), RS42II and SW112 subwoofer (crazy…). I gave the KEF setup to my friend as over the period of time I found the Klipsch was more suited for home theater with bigger fronts and center and of course horns, higher efficiency for the impact. I found KEF LS50 was not satisfactory for home theater. R200C vocals was good or even sometimes better, but was with less bass (tiny) compared Klipsch RC62II.

I do see these comments on the Klipsch RC62II that it is boxy, or tin-can sounding, or vocals not clear which I also experienced. Especially this was true for some male voices. So, I wanted to share my experience thinking it may also workout for others and eventually useful. In fact, I have taken RC62II to near by Hifi shops having theater and there when connected blow everybody including the seller who is dealing with speakers day in day out. I also understand RC62II is not the limit but you may need to go for much larger size which do not fit in living rooms.

I saw the frequency response of RC62ii measured by sound and vision. I observed that it has dip (-3db) at 2kHz crossover region and bump (+3db) at highs. So, with AVR (Onkyo TXNR 929) I did the following after running Audyseey for center channel.

1)      XO at 120HZ to remove lower frequencies (still some go to center at 12db/octave) and diverted to subwoofer, other speakers set at 100Hz, LPF for LFE at 120Hz.

2)      In Manual Equalizer, I changed 63Hz at -6db, 2.5kHz at +2db, 16kHz at -2 db. Rest all at 0db.

3)      Speaker levels for all speakers set at same level (no bumping for center).

4)      AVR played with Audyssey OFF, Dynamic Eq ON, Manual Eq ON.

5)      Remove the grill while watching as these are very thick.

With the above changes, I find the vocals have improved dramatically (very intelligent now) and also no more boxy sounding. Sound stage is a bit wider too. Further tweaking may or may not make it better, but decided that it’s enough.

I find that, by little tweaking we may be able to make the satisfactory outcomes. So worth trying based on individual circumstances. Also, I don’t see point in changing the speakers without trying these.

I thought this may be helpful for others (similar exercise may work out for other brands and models also), so have posted this. Good Luck.