Spec'd to Small, Fact or Fiction?

[The History Kid]

As long as I can remember, I've always followed the rule of thumb of setting speakers in my Home Theater configurations to small, while letting my sub handle the low end duties.  I usually ran the crossovers somewhere between 70 and 80 Hz.  Life was good...until I got my RSW-15, and realized I needed the punch for theater, but didn't need ALL of the punch for music.

 

Prior to having the gear I have now, I had Yamaha gear.  I was running a 2500 series AVR that had a profile bypass mode: Pure Direct.  That killed all of the video circuitry and send the full bandwidth right on to the speakers.  Enter the Emotiva gear I have now, which has no such feature.  I am well aware that my speakers are capable of digging, and hitting hard where I need them to (read on for that), but they simply were not and are not doing that with configuration I had.

 

Front L/R: Small, 70 Hz

Center: Small, 70 Hz

Surr L/R: Small, 80 Hz

SBack L/R: Small, 80 Hz

 

Now when running in stereo, or even direct when there's a sound profile at the source, this sounds fine.  However, when music is running, and I'm listening in direct mode (where a sub channel isn't present in the source), I basically lose everything below 70 Hz.

 

When in stereo (or direct) from my PC, music gets sent to a pair of RF-3 II's, and RB-5's.  The RF-3's as most of you know have updated XO's from Bob Crites.  They punch deep, and I'd estimate I'm getting the thunder down to about 50 Hz - possibly lower - between the two...when the front speakers are set to Large...

 

Researching this gave me all the problems from an overworked amp (not even kind of a thing for me), to overworked speakers (Klipsch, overworked?), to frequency dead zones, and comb filtering issues.  So, Klipsch fans and friends...what am I to do?  Do I leave this configuration now with a Large stereo main setup, or am I better off just biting the bullet and going back to small and running stereo (adjusting the sub dial down for certain music tracks)?

[Schu]

Wat?

[Schu]

Oh I see... Black type on a black background. 

I've never used small... now there are two of us!

[The History Kid]

Just now, Schu said:

Oh I see... Black type on a black background. 

I've never used small... now there are two of us!

Yeah, the forum has been messing with my colors for the last few days now...

 

...so it can be done and sound good and I'm not crazy...that crazy.  Great to know!

[Schu]

Oh don't worry... the experts will be along shortly to tell you you're doing it wrong.

Live and let live... 

[The History Kid]

7 minutes ago, Schu said:

Oh don't worry... the experts will be along shortly to tell you you're doing it wrong.

Live and let live... 

It's fine, I'm nuts for insisting on First-Generation Reference gear over the later lines anyway.

[billybob]

Have the RF-3's for HT and 2 channel at times. Proper placement using your rule of thumb, you know how decent the bass is with/without a sub.

Should have kept the Nak AV 500 you sold me....lol  watts...

Cheers

[The History Kid]

9 minutes ago, billybob said:

Have the RF-3's for HT and 2 channel at times. Proper placement using your rule of thumb, you know how decent the bass is with/without a sub.

Should have kept the Nak AV 500 you sold me....lol  watts...

Cheers

Haha, that Nak gave me some good times, I can't recall if I ran the 3's on it or not.  They're fed by an Emotiva XPA-2 now, which just...would terrify the Nak. lol

[garyrc]

Try all possible configurations, and go with what sounds best in each situation.

 

I've used both LARGE and SMALL at various times.

 

I now use SMALL and a 80 Hz crossover for almost all movies, because I can hear slightly clearer, less boomy, results.   But, for a few movies from the era of magnetic soundtracks,  I use LARGE because I need a little more bass impact, and LARGE gives me that.  Since setting speakers to LARGE tells some sound systems, "Don't use the subwoofer," to get the subwoofer with a LARGE setting, it may be necessary to set for LFE + MAIN.  Below is (I hope) an REW graph of my doctored-for-mag-soundtracks in-room response with the sub turned way up and the front (Klipschorns) set for LARGE.   I hear more impactive bass with LARGE, and I can detect no phase cancellation by ear or by REW.  I believe that the part of the graph that shows the K-horns and sub adding nicely is the part between 100 and 200 Hz, because that bridge isn't there with the fronts set to SMALL.   Don't ask me why it occurs at 100 - 200 rather than around 80, since the x-over ws set at 80, because I haven't the foggiest notion.  But it "fattens up" those magnetic tracks, and makes them sound more like they did in the theater.  Examples of films improved by this are Lawrence of Arabia, and Ben-Hur (1959).  Lawrence can be helped by a little treble cut, due to outrageous brass.

I also was convinced by Roger Dressler (formerly at Dolby) in a technical note at "Audyssey FAQ Linked Here"

  to try changing the LPF for LFE to 80 Hz (down from the 120 Hz that is the standard, and what filmmakers expect), while leaving the regular bass management crossover at its normal setting (also 80 Hz) on the grounds that  LFE in the 100-120 Hz zone is lot of boominess that can cloud the deeper bass.  Setting the LFE filter to 80 Hz can help clean that up. So far, I've run 7 movies that way, including Star Wars: The Last Jedi and Dunkirk, and they certainly were not lacking in deep bass, and sounded very crisp.  Also, music disks that use 5.1 are "not well disciplined in their use of LFE", leading to muddiness, acording to Roger, therefore can be helped by lowering the LPF to 80.   Most of my SACD multichannel music discs are 5.0 rather than 5.1, and the few 5.1s seem fairly well disciplined, so I can't vouch for that part.
 

[The History Kid]

2 minutes ago, garyrc said:

Since setting speakers to LARGE tells some sound systems, "Don't use the subwoofer," to get the subwoofer with a LARGE setting, it may be necessary to set for LFE + MAIN. 

Not a problem here.  The sub still kicks on when there is a channel of LFE being spit out of the source, or the music is spec'd with a .1 channel.  I've left that setting at 80 Hz on the preamp and have the high cut on the sub amp set to the same.  I run at 50% or 40% (depending on the nature) most of the time too to cut back on boominess.

[Rich_Guy]

I'd use small to turn on the crossover when using a sub, but 70 hz is too high a crossover setting, probably something more like around 50-55 hz, experiment with different crossover settings start from 40 hz and go up to see where you like it best. Use the crossover on your preamp and not on the sub.

[derrickdj1]

The only real way to see what is going on is to get REW or Omnimic.  When using a sub, in general set the speakers to small.  Choose the XO based on the weakest speaker, usually one of the surrounds.

 

The only real way to see how smooth the Mains mate with the sub is measuring.  If the system is for HT, the center channel and sub XO is key.  If the system is for music and HT, then the measurements should be based on Mains and subs.  Why this, the center is still important but, the mains contribute so much that they take priority.  This is a critical area to get right being just a small part of the entire bandwidth 20 Hz to 20 kHz.  I run my speakers with and without a sub and can't say one is better than the other.  So, experiment for now and plan on getting some real objective data.

 

 

[Rich_Guy]

15 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

Choose the XO based on the weakest speaker, usually one of the surrounds.

 

This is if you have a combined crossover, separate crossovers for each group of speakers center/mains/surrounds etc. are much more common now where a compromise is not needed. The crossover however should be adjusted to best match the speaker or speakers it will be controlling.

[derrickdj1]

37 minutes ago, Rich_Guy said:

This is if you have a combined crossover, separate crossovers for each group of speakers center/mains/surrounds etc. are much more common now where a compromise is not needed. The crossover however should be adjusted to best match the speaker or speakers it will be controlling.

This is more a marketing gimmick, than true audiophile usage.  You are talking about variable XO.  We are talking about such a small portion of the bandwidth from 20 Hz to 20 kHz that using variable XO has not been proven better than using a global XO in all my internet searches.  As I have said previously, without real measurements, it is guess work.  The bandwidth from 40 to 80 Hz is roughly 1/10 of the entire bandwidth and not the most critical like 1500 kHz to around 4000 kHz. Changing a single speaker up or down  5-20 Hz is very minor compared to proper setup and correct autocalibration.

 

You can use a sub or not , and have a great sound depending on the room, music, and what you like to hear.  Many people don't have the luxury of a dual setup and need to get one general system to do both HT and music well. 

 

Looking at my signature, you may say, well look how many big subs you have.  I have tired for 3 or 4 yerar to integrated the subs for music.  They will work with HT but, I only need one or two for music and they have to be near the Mains for best integration in my room.  The vast majority of rooms only need one or two subs for music.

[derrickdj1]

Here are measurements of the latest settings with a 100 Hz XO.  Sometimes the auto-calibration will set the speakers to 80 Hz.  I don't worry about having variabel XO settings.  I have been able to reproduce these graphs in multiple rooms using a global XO.  I don't worry about having speakers set to small.  These type of graphs can be achieved with one, two  but, not eight subs in the room! There is a portal of time measurements with auto-calibration of roughly 40-80 milliseconds that need to be taken into consideration in most rooms when running auto-calibration.  This can be a deep learning curve and may not be a feature of a particular avr.

[Rich_Guy]

54 minutes ago, derrickdj1 said:

This is more a marketing gimmick, than true audiophile usage.  You are talking about variable XO.  We are talking about such a small portion of the bandwidth from 20 Hz to 20 kHz that using variable XO has not been proven better than using a global XO in all my internet searches.  As I have said previously, without real measurements, it is guess work.  The bandwidth from 40 to 80 Hz is roughly 1/10 of the entire bandwidth and not the most critical like 1500 kHz to around 4000 kHz. Changing a single speaker up or down  5-20 Hz is very minor compared to proper setup and correct autocalibration.

Not at all, it makes a huge difference to be able to properly match the crossover to the speaker and to have the ability to match the crossover at each speaker mains/ center and surrounds rather than just one generalized crossover is a very good improvement. Of course systems vary but generally your mains are usually capable of going much lower than your surrounds and if so your mains should not be limited by the surrounds and 5-20 hz in crossover settings can make a lot of difference. I am all for proper setup but I haven't seen any auto calibration system that can do it perfectly. I use auto calibration, my own SPL meter, my own ears and lots of experience and experimentation with my system to achieve the most authentic and realistic sound.

[derrickdj1]

I am willing to go out on a limb and ask that you support the above with objective data and measurements.  Setting the Center from 60 to 80 Hz is not significant.  The overall aut-ocalibration is wrong if it can't adjust.  People think I can totally depend on Auddysee, there are to many versions and other aboration.  No one know's where they are at.  This is not the best calibration method, peoriod!!!

 

[Rich_Guy]

There is a huge difference in sound between a crossover setting of 60 or 80 hz, personally I think 80  hz is far too high for any speaker that has good bass capability  Currently with my XMC-1 processor my fronts - RF-5's are set to 50 hz, my center - RC-7 is set to 60 hz, rear & side surrounds - RS-7's are both set to 60 hz, this is from a lot of testing and experimentation and I like the bass to be coming from these speakers rather than my subwoofers down to these levels I can hear the bass in these locations rather than a more generalized subwoofer location, while many feel that low hz cannot be localized lower than around 80 hz it can to some I'd say my drop off is more like 60 hz, and besides localization at around 60 hz I do prefer the sound of my speakers over my subwoofers.

 

As far as Audyssey it's been a few years since I've done anything with that but years ago Chris Kyriakakis  the founder of Audyssey said that Audyssey was not responsibe for changing the speaker settings at SMALL/LARGE when Audyssey was run, it was something that was being controlled by the receiver/processor maker and not Audyssey itself and if running Audyssey set the speakers to LARGE to go back and re-set them to SMALL if a subwoofer was being used and to correctly set the crossover settings. This was several years ago I forget what version of Audyssey was current then and it may be different with newer forms of Audyssey.

 

Anyway I have always preferred a SMALL speaker setting with a subwoofer and with my speakers a lower crossover setting, 80 hz does not allow my speakers to reach the low bass they sound so wonderful at. Setting speakers to SMALL gives you more control and allows you to match the crossover to your speakers/subwoofer and where they blend together well. When mated well you should never hear where the sound is coming from the subwoofer, it should blend flawlessly with your speakers enhancing them to their lowest abilities and then taking over seemlessly.

[garyrc]

15 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

I am willing to go out on a limb and ask that you support the above with objective data and measurements.  Setting the Center from 60 to 80 Hz is not significant.  The overall aut-ocalibration is wrong if it can't adjust.  People think I can totally depend on Auddysee, there are to many versions and other aboration.  No one know's where they are at.  This is not the best calibration method, peoriod!!!

 

 

 

What if the F3 of a surround is 110 Hz, and the F3 of a main front speaker is 40 Hz?  Would you want to set both x-overs to the same frequency?  I didn't just pull those numbers out of a hat, they are based on existing cases on the "Official Audyssey" forum on AVS.  I also wonder about inadequate bass speakers that are not  crossed over high enough producing too much modulation distortion.

[derrickdj1]

3 hours ago, garyrc said:

What if the F3 of a surround is 110 Hz, and the F3 of a main front speaker is 40 Hz?  Would you want to set both x-overs to the same frequency?  I didn't just pull those numbers out of a hat, they are based on existing cases on the "Official Audyssey" forum on AVS.  I also wonder about inadequate bass speakers that are not  crossed over high enough producing too much modulation distortion.

I am not saying you can't use the variable XO, there is no point in trying to set all the speakers to the lowest XO based off the manufactures spec.  I have the RF 7II/64 system and use a XO of 100 Hz.  This works well for music using one or two subs.  This setting is also protective for the surrounds and Atmos speakers during movies demos.  Most subwoofer can play clean up to around 200 Hz.  The subwoofer driver is better suited for bass in the 20 Hz to around 130 Hz range compared to a smaller woofer.

 

There are no absolutes and it depends on what your ears like.  Setting a XO from 80 Hz down to 60 Hz based on speaker spec's is a total of 20 Hz in a bandwidth going to 20 kHz or more.  Would you miss $20 dollars out of $20, 000?