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Spec'd to Small, Fact or Fiction?


The History Kid

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4 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

I am not saying you can't use the variable XO, there is no point in trying to set all the speakers to the lowest XO based off the manufactures spec.  I have the RF 7II/64 system and use a XO of 100 Hz.  This works well for music using one or two subs.  This setting is also protective for the surrounds and Atmos speakers during movies demos.  Most subwoofer can play clean up to around 200 Hz.  The subwoofer driver is better suited for bass in the 20 Hz to around 130 Hz range compared to a smaller woofer.

 

There are no absolutes and it depends on what your ears like.  Setting a XO from 80 Hz down to 60 Hz based on speaker spec's is a total of 20 Hz in a bandwidth going to 20 kHz or more.  Would you miss $20 dollars out of $20, 000?

 

First dollars and crossover settings have nothing in common. Second 20kHz is completely wrong, your speakers have internal crossovers which the manufacturer fine tuned to blend your woofers and tweeters, this has big effect on the sound of the speaker. You should be using a subwoofer crossover to blend your subwoofer with your woofer(s) not your tweeter(s) and the woofer(s) are limited to much lower than 20 kHz, not that that mattered much.

 

Would you remove your speakers internal crossovers? No, I would not recommend it. But this is basically what you do to the crossover between your speakers and subwoofer when you select running your speakers as LARGE. When you run your speakers as SMALL you enable the crossover to fine tune the blend between your subwoofer(s) and speakers to get the best match between them. You want the subwoofer to blend seamlessly together with the speakers an extension of their bass you do not want the subwoofer to stand out on its own but to have a seamless blend.

 

Speakers which have a very good low bass of their own will normally benefit with a lower crossover setting and will benefit with lower than 80 Hz. Using an 80 Hz crossover on good low bas speakers is like trying to make them sound like Bose cubes, the difference between a main speakers low bass at 50 Hz and 80 Hz is very significant, a crossover of 80 Hz is better for smaller speakers which are not vary capable of low bass on their own. Smaller speakers and tiny satellite speakers usually will need a crossover of about 80 Hz-120 Hz. Speakers which produce excellent low bass of their own usually will benefit more like somewhere between 40 Hz and 70 Hz. with the subwoofer taking over for the very lowest Hz.

 

Low Hz becomes non directional to the human ear at some point as it gets lower, this varies among people and their hearing, you want the subwoofer to crossover below this level. There is also a matter of the speaker and subwoofer tones as well. The subwoofer and speakers should seamlessly blend together so you do not hear where the speakers and subwoofers bass blends. I can usually hear whether bass coming from a speaker or subwoofer down to about 60 Hz for some people this can be higher than 80 Hz as everyone's hearing is different. I hate to hear when the sound is coming from the subwoofer and not the speakers. This is where  fine tuning the crossover comes in to make that seamless blend and this will vary by the system as well as personal preferences and hearing. But when using a subwoofer the speakers should be set to SMALL so that you can use the crossover to fine tune the speaker and subwoofer mating and blending. The lower the crossover is set the more it is similar to running them in LARGE but using SMALL gives you more control of the blending, because it is enacting the crossover.

 

Normally use the receivers/processors crossover and not the subwoofers, set the subwoofer crossover to it's highest setting or LFE etc. You do not use the speakers lowest Hz rating usually a little higher than this works best and as always experiment to find what sounds best.

 

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4 hours ago, derrickdj1 said:

there is no point in trying to set all the speakers to the lowest XO based off the manufactures spec. 

 

I would never go by the manufacturer's spec.  Too much depends on the room, positioning, etc.  Audyssey measures the F3 of each speaker in its position, and sends that info to the AVR.  The AVR then uses that info to set crossovers using whatever algorithm the manufacturer has decided to use.  Often, the F3 of the speaker is rounded up to a figure ending in 0, because crossover points ending in 0 are available on most AVRs and pre/pros.  So, 38 becomes 40, 44 becomes 50, etc.  The screen will show the rounded up figure, and the AVR will set your crossover for that speaker there.   The user can reset the crossovers to taste.  A common recommendation is to change any figure below 80 to 80, to let the subs do the heavy lifting.  In the example I gave in my earlier post, an AVS member's screen showed F3 = 40 for each of the mains, and 110 for each of the surrounds.  It seems to me that setting all crossovers to 110 would be a waste, and setting them all to 40 would invite a big response dip, and perhaps gross distortion, from the surrounds, which might be prone to what speaker evaluators used to call "doubling." 

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14 hours ago, garyrc said:

n the example I gave in my earlier post, an AVS member's screen showed F3 = 40 for each of the mains, and 110 for each of the surrounds.  It seems to me that setting all crossovers to 110 would be a waste, and setting them all to 40 would invite a big response dip, and perhaps gross distortion, from the surrounds, which might be prone to what speaker evaluators used to call "doubling." 

Good point Gary.  In the example, the speakers seem to be grossly mismatched.  I never said don't use the variable XO, which would work well in this case.

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16 hours ago, Rich_Guy said:

Speakers which have a very good low bass of their own will normally benefit with a lower crossover setting and will benefit with lower than 80 Hz. Using an 80 Hz crossover on good low bas speakers is like trying to make them sound like Bose cubes, the difference between a main speakers low bass at 50 Hz and 80 Hz is very significant, a crossover of 80 Hz is better for smaller speakers which are not vary capable of low bass on their own. Smaller speakers and tiny satellite speakers usually will need a crossover of about 80 Hz-120 Hz. Speakers which produce excellent low bass of their own usually will benefit more like somewhere between 40 Hz and 70 Hz. with the subwoofer taking over for the very lowest Hz.

The XO for a 2 channel system may be lower than what one would use in an HT system due to the compliment of speakers in the HT.  In a 2 ch system setting the XO 15 Hz above the low frequency speaker cutoff is an acceptable practice.  The is no reason to think that the bass of a speaker is superior to the bass of a subwoofer when both handle the operating range.  A good sub integrated with the mains should basically sound the same.

 

Some of our members have the benefit of having a separate 2 channel and HT system.  Many on the forum use the same speakers for 2 ch and HT. This situation takes a bit more thought.  Nothing wrong with using multiple variable XO if the avr offers it.  The XO serves two points in this discussion, blending with the sub  and protecting the speakers.

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1 hour ago, Ceptorman said:

I use two different XO settings for HT and 2 channel. I have my 2 channel pre-amp XO at 40hz, and my HT AVR set at 60hz, using the same towers and sub through a Niles speaker switch. Seem to work well.

 

Yes I also use a processor (Emotiva XMC-1) for HT 7.2 channel and a pre-amp (Emotiva XSP-1) for 2.2 channel both use the same front tower speakers and subs. The XSP-1 has HT bypass to provide switching. The XSP-1's crossover has no Hz markings on its dials but I prefer its lowest setting which is probably around 40 Hz I'm guessing.

 

For HT I have done extensive testing I use both of my subwoofers built in EQ systems, on my XMC-1 I use Dirac EQ which I like much better than Audyssey,  I use a boom mic stand for the microphones at their various locations and also my own SPL meter but it has been Identical to that with Dirac. I have done extensive testing and comparisons as to what sounds best to me, especially for the most authentic and natural sound my goal is the most realism. I have tested and compared every crossover setting in my system 80Hz and below. I definitely prefer my crossovers set below 80 Hz, as I have made changes to my system over the years this has probably averaged around 60Hz as a rule. My current preferred being Front mains set at 50 Hz and the center and 4 surrounds all at set at 60 Hz. This is what I am using after considerable comparisons and testing and I do find that crossover settings make a considerable difference. I will always run my speakers at SMALL, the SMALL/LARGE label is misleading it would be better labeled SUBWOOFER/NO SUBWOOFER as it has nothing to do with the size of the speaker it enables the crossover so you can fine tune your speakers to your subwoofer. I have done considerable testing, comparisons, tweaking to find what makes me like the sound of my system best.

 

 

 

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