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DIFFERENCES IN SQ & AMPS, ETC.


cgolf70

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I have a pair of Fortes w/Crites upgrades.  Love the sound!!  I have powered them with a Luxman R-117 (was part of the package), a Yamaha RA-860, a Sansui AU-217 and a Kenwood KA-5700.  The Kenwood and Sansui are both vintage integrated amps.  

 

I read about people all the time trying different samps with their speakers and how they can tell a difference in the SQ, sometimes small and sometimes huge.  Maybe I'm just an old guy with damaged ears because of too many rock concerts in the day, but I just can't tell that much difference in any of the above amps with the Fortes.  Maybe some difference between the Yamaha and the others but basically no significant difference with the other amps.

 

So either I do hear differences and just don't recognize them, maybe there really isn't that much difference to be recognized or maybe my ears are beyond recognizing!!  All I know is that the Fortes sound great with all 4 amps.  But it does sorta tick me off that if there really are significant differences, I don't seem to notice!!  :-)

 

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I have noticed some differences in some amps.  The Luxman R-117 is one of those special pieces that does everything right with tight punchy bass, sweet velvety midrange, detail galore, and explosive dynamic headroom, IMO. 

 

I am sure your other amps can hold their own also.

 

Bill

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Yes, the Luxman is a very special piece of equipment.  The seller of the fortes threw it in for free because they felt it was the only piece that could drive the Fortes like they should be driven.  One of those once in a lifetime deals!!

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First of all, you mention "sources", but I see no sources specified in your post. Only integrated amps.

 

Yes all amps will  sound different to varying degrees. If it's not important to you, don't sweat it. I've only heard two SS amps that I thought were a notch above. A pair of McCormack DNA-1 deluxe monolocks and a Plinius SA-103. Both very good, but I still prefer tubes. That's where the magic is with horns, IMHO.

 

 

Shakey

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

First of all, you mention "sources", but I see no sources specified in your post. Only integrated amps.

 

Yes all amps will  sound different to varying degrees. If it's not important to you, don't sweat it. I've only heard two SS amps that I thought were a notch above. A pair of McCormack DNA-1 deluxe monolocks and a Plinius SA-103. Both very good, but I still prefer tubes. That's where the magic is with horns, IMHO.

 

 

Shakey

 

 

 

 

 

Yes your are most correct, I meant amps not sources.

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As I recall: at one of the early pilgrimages to Indy there was a demo of a tube amp which had a switch to introduce negative feedback or not.  Yes, there was a difference.  As I recall the dreaded negative feedback improved the bass.  Maybe deeper.  This  was on K-Horns as I recall.

 

I was a bit miffed because it was a small room and we were packed in tight.  Not a relaxed listening situation. 

 

My thought was that a real test would have been with gear to test the frequency response at the output of the amp and maybe acoustic output of the speakers.  Perhaps Klipsch Inc. did not want to explore that thorny thicket.

 

At another pilgrimage, the host was supposed to set up and ABX test between Monster Wire and lamp cord.  But then for unstated reasons, the Monster Wire was not used and braided CAT-5 wire was used in its place.  I was alone in the test room and listened to music and could not hear any difference.  Though I really think that the complexity of music and variations from bar to bar makes this sort of thing very problematic. Then I sought to avoid such issues and tried pink noise.  I heard no difference in the wires.  

 

Sometime earlier I ran FR curves on lamp wire and my home K-Horns using an LMS system.  At the amp versus at the speakers.  No difference except for one data point out of hundreds where there was a difference at the limits of resolution.

 

FWIW i had Forte II in my office fed by small Sony receiver which probably has Tripath chips.  Just wonderful in all respects.

 

 

WMcD

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It’s not your age, not your failing ears….  It’s just healthy skepticism that leads you wonder whether the huge difference some people claim to hear are real or imagined.

 

Rather than spend an hour laying out the rationale for my opinion, I’ll direct you to this website:

 

http://tom-morrow-land.com/tests/ampchall/index.htm

 

Here’s a simple way of looking at this:  The mere fact that the audibility of differences b/w amplifiers is actually debated is hugely informative.  ..Just how important can the differences be if such a debate exists ??  We NEVER have such arguments about differences b/w speakers or room acoustics, etc..

 

My .02$:  The realism of your hifi system is 50% speakers; 49% room acoustics: 1% audible differences b/w modern amplifiers, cd players, DACs, etc….

 

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--- There is no doubt, and should be fairly appearent, the most pronounced differences in a system are speakers. Would I actually think my RB75's will sound like Quartets, Quartets like LaScala, LaScala like Jubilees? Of course not. But whether my "failing" hearing is insufficient enough to be able the hear differences in amplifiers ? I think not. Refined, well designed amplifiers sound just that- refined. Crap, built to a  mass market price point amps sound just that - crap. Klipsch speakers got a bad rap when people used low cost, high power solid state amps that would take your head off, beginning with your ears. Of course most tube amps were able overcome that. And modern, well designed SS amps now sound great with horns. Owing, listening to enough amplification gives the advantage of knowing what to listen for, and what you do and don't like because amplifiers sound different.

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Our senses are very delicate with great resolution, but our "sense memory" is unreliable, and that's why ABX testing isn't very useful to determine differences in tastes, colors, smells, sounds, or tactility. We have no recorders in our brain to facilitate the comparison of a complex sound heard 30 seconds ago, to one we are hearing this moment. Our sense perceptions are not comparators.

 

If ABX testing was valid the audio industry would look a lot like the phone industry where a small number of standard platforms are judged the winners and the whole market becomes commodified around small variations of the winning platforms. Audio is nothing at all like that. The market thinks there are differences worth supporting, and the manufactures think there are differences worth investing their R&D.

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7 hours ago, MerkinMuffley said:

Our senses are very delicate with great resolution, but our "sense memory" is unreliable, and that's why ABX testing isn't very useful to determine differences in tastes, colors, smells, sounds, or tactility. We have no recorders in our brain to facilitate the comparison of a complex sound heard 30 seconds ago, to one we are hearing this moment. Our sense perceptions are not comparators.

 

If ABX testing was valid the audio industry would look a lot like the phone industry where a small number of standard platforms are judged the winners and the whole market becomes commodified around small variations of the winning platforms. Audio is nothing at all like that. The market thinks there are differences worth supporting, and the manufactures think there are differences worth investing their R&D.

 

 

This guy gets it.

 

The best way to determine the improvement from any audio product, from speakers to cables, is long term listening. Listening for changes in tone, timbre, dynamics, etc. are all good indicators. But there are other aspects to be aware of.

 

Do you connect more with the music? Is you enjoyment level higher? Do you hear subtleties that were previously missing? Is your toe tapping, or do you want to shut the system off?

 

Listening to 30 second snippets, whether blind or sighted, is a sure way to frustrate the hell out of yourself and no way to "test' audio equipment.

 

I really don't care if you are convinced  that an Indian war dance performed in your room before every listening session makes your system sound better. Do it, if it does.

 

 

Shakey

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49 minutes ago, cgolf70 said:

Interesting discussion.  Good news is that the Fortes are awesome speakers and sound great with each different amp.  Bad (not really bad) news is I need (want) to pick one to keep and sell the others.  Gotta love this hobby!!

 

I would suggest that before you make this decision to get a good tube amp in for an audition. My prediction is that will be the one you keep.

 

Shakey

 

 

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13 hours ago, MerkinMuffley said:

Our senses are very delicate with great resolution, but our "sense memory" is unreliable, and that's why ABX testing isn't very useful to determine differences in tastes, colors, smells, sounds, or tactility. We have no recorders in our brain to facilitate the comparison of a complex sound heard 30 seconds ago, to one we are hearing this moment. Our sense perceptions are not comparators.

 

If ABX testing was valid the audio industry would look a lot like the phone industry where a small number of standard platforms are judged the winners and the whole market becomes commodified around small variations of the winning platforms. Audio is nothing at all like that. The market thinks there are differences worth supporting, and the manufactures think there are differences worth investing their R&D.

 

It's simply not true that our brains can't compare sounds that are separated by 30 secs.  As Don Richard noted, this is exactly what conductors and band leaders do.  Musicians do this all the time when choosing which guitar or strings to use for a given song.  ..Or what recording engineers and producers do when mixing a song.   And does anyone dispute our ability to distinguish b/w speakers when using a ABX comparator.  Of course not.

 

As to your second point, I think the opposite is true.  ..If amplifiers indeed sounded so different there would be no need to expend so much effort on their appearance.  1/2" faceplates, over-engineered casework, etc...   If they sounded different, they wouldn't need to look so different.  

 

As I've said before, this hobby is badly damaged by it's general disregard for validity testing.  

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3 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

 

I would suggest that before you make this decision to get a good tube amp in for an audition. My prediction is that will be the one you keep.

The more amps you try, the better but not everyone prefers tubes.  It's the old vanilla chocolate debate which I won't derail the thread with.

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28 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

It's simply not true that our brains can't compare sounds that are separated by 30 secs.  As Don Richard noted, this is exactly what conductors and band leaders do.  Musicians do this all the time when choosing which guitar or strings to use for a given song.  ..Or what recording engineers and producers do when mixing a song.   And does anyone dispute our ability to distinguish b/w speakers when using a ABX comparator.  Of course not.

 

As to your second point, I think the opposite is true.  ..If amplifiers indeed sounded so different there would be no need to expend so much effort on their appearance.  1/2" faceplates, over-engineered casework, etc...   If they sounded different, they wouldn't need to look so different.  

 

As I've said before, this hobby is badly damaged by hurt by it's general disregard for validity testing.  

 

 

Ok, I'll bite.

 

If all amps (within their specific power rating) sound the same, what criteria do you judge the one you purchase by? Is it bells and whistles, color of the case, how much it weighs? Or what?

 

I mean if a 100 watt per channel receiver that costs 200.00 has all the gew gaws you desire in such a piece of crap, why would you buy a 500.00 amplifier with the same power rating and same gee gaws? They will certainly sound the same right?

 

I have never been able to quite wrap my head around the "scientific objectivist methodology" of  how you guys choose equipment. I know how I do it, by which thing sounds the best. But when that is discarded, there isn't a whole lot left...........

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