Raw Jubes in da house

[babadono]

11 hours ago, Chris A said:

How do they sound?

Did not want to leave you hanging too long....sorry. They sound fantastic. Just not enough bass or correct bass. I know I have lots or at least some measuring and adjusting to do(third time? I've stated this) The 402s are just amazing already and I get the "soundstage" and "width of the sweet spot". I lived with stock LaScalas and KHorns for like over 30 years then I found this forum and well.......been through Fastlane audio tractix midrange horns on LaScalas, Eliptrac midrange on KHorns both the standard one and a much larger one made custom by Dave. Been from original crossovers to ALK extreme slopes. Been through several tweeter changes also. Every step has been an improvement IMHO but the 402s are just awesome.

[babadono]

50 minutes ago, Trentster5172 said:

 

Sorry I missed this...

 

If I turn it up loud I see the first green lights. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I think commercial pre units and amplifiers have higher line-level input where you would actually see all four lights as you turned it up.  Since I use a home Pre and home amps I barely see one green line-level light when turned up loud.

 

Trent

I don't know if you saw this post of mine in different thread:

"Finally got around to putting the Xilica back on the bench. With -10dBV (consumer gear) ref level unbalanced input I was able to get the input meters(in XConsole app) up to +5 dB out of a possible +21. This was with the gain of the input channels all the way up to +15. There is still another 15 db of gain in the outputs available. Curiously it looks like the front panel input meters show the input level WITHOUT the gain you add with the input gain control. But the meters in the XConsole app shows input level with gain added.

Well I'm still trying to wrap my head around what the front panel meters are showing because now I have a balanced signal at +4dBu going in and the meters show "signal" but the -12 led is not even lit."

 

Well I am still trying to wrap my brain around this. I feed a balanced signal out of my mixer to the Xilica and yea if it is at ear bleed level the bottom "signal" led MIGHT be on on the input meters. Nada on the output meters. I will figure this out even if I have to call Kent at Xilica for some help/explanation.

[Coytee]

1 hour ago, Trentster5172 said:

 

Sorry I missed this...

 

If I turn it up loud I see the first green lights. Somebody correct me if I’m wrong, but I think commercial pre units and amplifiers have higher line-level input where you would actually see all four lights as you turned it up.  Since I use a home Pre and home amps I barely see one green line-level light when turned up loud.

 

Trent

 

50 minutes ago, babadono said:

I don't know if you saw this post of mine in different thread:

"Finally got around to putting the Xilica back on the bench. With -10dBV (consumer gear) ref level unbalanced input I was able to get the input meters(in XConsole app) up to +5 dB out of a possible +21. This was with the gain of the input channels all the way up to +15. There is still another 15 db of gain in the outputs available. Curiously it looks like the front panel input meters show the input level WITHOUT the gain you add with the input gain control. But the meters in the XConsole app shows input level with gain added.

Well I'm still trying to wrap my head around what the front panel meters are showing because now I have a balanced signal at +4dBu going in and the meters show "signal" but the -12 led is not even lit."

 

Well I am still trying to wrap my brain around this. I feed a balanced signal out of my mixer to the Xilica and yea if it is at ear bleed level the bottom "signal" led MIGHT be on on the input meters. Nada on the output meters. I will figure this out even if I have to call Kent at Xilica for some help/explanation.

 

 

Here's my understanding of the situation...  (someone correct me if needed)

 

What you want to end up doing is using most of the gain from your preamp.  This will in turn, require less gain from your power amps AND will then allow you to drive the inputs of your Xilica (or any active) much "harder" or perhaps I should say, more appropriately.

 

When I first got my Jubilees, I made a comment to Roy once while some were in his lab...  I asked why HIS system had all sorts of blinking lights (on the Dx38) and mine had none...zero, nada....  unless it was BLASTING the hell out of me, then I might get one or two.

 

My system THEN was Peach preamp plugged into Dx which was then plugged into (fixed amps) a McIntosh and a dbx BX-1.  The input sensitivity of the dbx amp as I recall was 1-volt and the McIntosh was at 2.5.  The dbx amp was NOT adjustable so it was a hair trigger system.

 

Dump the amps, replace them with some "XYZ" amps that have VARIABLE gain knobs on the front (I'm using Crown K2's) and now, I can turn the volume of the Crown's down, forcing me to turn the volume of the preamp UP which in turn, drives the inputs of the crossover harder...more blinky lights, better SN ratios...

 

So of you have fixed gain amps, that might be an issue.  

 

Question for one of the smart ones who might be reading this....  Can you take a fixed gain amp and inside the active, attenuate the output to that amp, therefore requiring you to use more input gain??  Or do you have to fix the issue at the amp and get a different gain structure?

 

 

[Marvel]

Richard,

Erik is using Crown D-75 amps, with gain controls on them, so it should just be some adjustments to get "blinky lights".

 

Erik,

If you had those when we were in  L.A. at Christmas, it would have been more tempting to get to your house. I could just go visit Richard, as he is pretty close. I've only heard Jubes at Indy, and that was at the hotel.

 

Bruce

[babadono]

5 hours ago, Marvel said:

Richard,

Erik is using Crown D-75 amps, with gain controls on them, so it should just be some adjustments to get "blinky lights".

 

Erik,

If you had those when we were in  L.A. at Christmas, it would have been more tempting to get to your house. I could just go visit Richard, as he is pretty close. I've only heard Jubes at Indy, and that was at the hotel.

 

Bruce

So it's my speakers you want to visit not me Invitation is open anytime you're back in the area.

Yes TAD/402 are driven by Crown D75s, bass bins by my old trusty Boulder 500. All have input level controls. I will figure it out once I have a laptop and REW up and running. This ain't rocket science but it is audio engineering.

[Marvel]

Speakers start out being the reason to meet... then the friendship takes over.

[Coytee]

If you have an adjustable gain....then try this...

 

Turn everything down (all volume & gain controls)

 

Put CD on with nothing being heard.

 

Take volume control of preamp and put it to "10" or the maximum of its range.

 

Now, start to turn the power amps up until you get to your general listening levels...  maybe a touch more...  then you're done.

 

You've maximized the input from the preamp and have a much finer resolution of volume (it's not blasting you to hell when turned to 9:00 position)

 

If you want more thump....turn gains up at the amps.

 

My Crown's are "around" (I forget) nine-ten "clicks" from zero.  Now I have plenty of range BUT, they are never going to really crank terribly loud.  Want more boom?  then I just turn the gains up at the speakers until my wife rolls her eyes at me and leaves the room.

 

[dtel]

20 hours ago, babadono said:

"Finally got around to putting the Xilica back on the bench. With -10dBV (consumer gear) ref level unbalanced input I was able to get the input meters(in XConsole app) up to +5 dB out of a possible +21. This was with the gain of the input channels all the way up to +15. There is still another 15 db of gain in the outputs available.

I had the same problem, and as Coytee described. Consumer to Pro two totally different levels after talking with some people I tried this, Clean Box Pro, it is made for this exact problem. It worked perfectly and NO added noise at all, dead quiet, even if your stick your head in the 402.

This fixed the two different levels for $69, it's the first time I could get as many input lights as I want on the DX. If it added any noise or bad changes I would have not kept it, I switched from balanced to unbalanced into this box just to try it, but out I kept the balanced to the DX, no noise at all. You just have to make sure you don't increase the line voltage to much, just turn the knob until you get the  input lights where you want with the DX (or whatever brand) gain at 0.

 

They make a few different designs like this, but this was just what I needed. They call it a Pro/Consumer level converter, which can also be used for just the opposite if the need is to reduce line levels.

 

Balanced to Unbalanced: -6 dB Unbalanced to Balanced: +21 dB

 

[Schu]

^that is interesting...

[CECAA850]

1 hour ago, Schu said:

^that is interesting...

I've had to use Cleanboxes on several occasion when using pro amps with consumer grade electronics.  I currently am using one With a Crown K2 as that's the only way you'll get any output with a consumer preamp.  A Behringer that I use with my IB has a switch on the back for consumer or pro use.

[babadono]

On 4/30/2018 at 3:00 PM, CECAA850 said:

You can hear some in Hope.

And he did

[dtel]

They were having a problem with gain in the listening room in Hope, they wanted to have it where they could switch back and forth from SS to the tube amp. The problem was the tube amp did not have enough gain to keep up with the SS to do a same volume switch between the two. The ordered the Clean Box Pro and we tried RCA in and RCA out and there was no change in gain on the tubes. They got some XLR to RCA to come out of Clean Box with XLR and the gain was then adjustable and fixed the problem. 

 

So if anyone is looking to try this to fix gain problems you will need XLR on one end to exit the Clean Box for it to work. It's how I use it but I didn't know it didn't work with RCA in and out.

 

So when they switched to the tubes in the listening room it was going through the Clean Box the SS wasn't.

[Shiva]

Yeah, I use a converter box as well, hooked up between a Pioneer Elite receiver and my Crown K2 amp, driving my Epic CF3's.  I picked the Henry Matchbox HD for the job, found on Ebay for 50 bucks several years ago.

 

http://www.henryeng.com/matchbox.html  

[babadono]

46 minutes ago, dtel said:

The ordered the Clean Box Pro and we tried RCA in and RCA out and there was no change in gain on the tubes

? I am looking at the ART website at the documentation (block diagram) of the Cleanbox Pro. I don't see how you would get any unbalanced output from the unbalanced input unless you connected the balanced XLR out to the balanced XLR in with a cable.

💡💡  Ok here it is from the manual:

 

Inline Balanced or Unbalanced Level/Gain Control

1. Loop unbalanced outputs to unbalanced inputs to provide an inline balanced level / gain control.

2. Loop balanced outputs to balanced inputs to provide an inline unbalanced level / gain control.

 

Is this what they did? I do not own one of these but looks like gain should have been adjustable if hooked up this way.

[dtel]

They were trying to go unbalanced to unbalanced and it did nothing, when they went unbalanced to balanced and it worked. Even though the XLR cable was RCA on the other end

 

It was RCA to RCA and it did nothing, they switched to RCA in to XLR out and it worked to adjust gain. I guess i got lucky and just happen to need the connection that works 

 

I guess it only works on those connections to increase gain ? And not whether it's really balanced or unbalanced.

[babadono]

Got the Jubes in their corners finally. I had to remove a pellet stove that never gets used to make this happen. @Coytee ,the futon is facing the speakers now😎

[Schu]

That's sexy... congratulations.

Looks like some room treatments might be in order.

How do they sound?

Are you still using factory settings?

[babadono]

Yes Sir room treatments, check. I am certainly not finished but at least to the point where when time is available I can start taking measurements. I am using some preliminary settings I got from ChrisA for the Jubes with TADs. I've got a new laptop, the UMIK, REW and the Xilica app.

They sound fantastic, the 402 horns are amazing. The stereo soundstage is so wide. And the lower registers from the LF cabinets make me think there is/was something wrong with my KHorns and LaScalas that I need to investigate. Like maybe the back chambers for the woofers are leaking or??

[Schu]

Or maybe they aren't long enough...

[Coytee]

Looks nice!

 

Nothing like honky horns.

 

 

3 hours ago, babadono said:

The stereo soundstage is so wide. And the lower registers from the LF cabinets make me think there is/was something wrong with my KHorns and LaScalas that I need to investigate. Like maybe the back chambers for the woofers are leaking or??

 

Not knowing the exact issue....  could it perhaps be the substantial jump in sound from Khorns/LaScalas to the Jubilee's that some folks in the past, refused to believe could exist?