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jwc

Why is this PASS design so cheap?

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What model?  I see the kit.

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Guest wdecho
1 hour ago, jwc said:

So in Amp Camp.....what design are u getting?

The amp camps are the refinements of the Zen projects using just one transistor for amplification. The schematic is posted at diyaudio builders thread. For more info watch the video and read up on the Zen series. Zen 7 and down.

http://www.firstwatt.com/articles.html

 

http://guides.diyaudio.com/Guide/Amp+Camp+Amp+(March+2018)+Build+Guide/2

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7 hours ago, Chris A said:

Actually, I personally find Srajan Ebaen's writing to be among the least useful sort of "purple prose audiophilia" that I've ever read.  Perhaps I'm alone in my opinion but I've never seen such anthropomorphism used by any audiophile writer.  I'm not sure why NP chose him to review his First Watt amplifiers and other hardware.  (Srajan must posses some sort of secret handshake. 🖖)

 

I'd much rather recommend diyAudio in the Pass Labs section...and search by amplifier model keywords in that forum.  NP himself gives much better reviews of his own gear there (as well as on his First Watt website). His diyAudio forum name is "Nelson Pass".  And you'll typically find much more comprehensible comments on the sound of the amplifiers by real people that build stuff, and that have a little understanding of the physics of amplification and electron devices.

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

 

--- it would hard to debate Srajan use of prose in his writings, they are indeed "descriptive" at best. I only offered this as a format to read a bit on each model for after cutting though the verbage each is aptly described. And for whatever reason Pass seems to have full confidence in allowing first reviews to happen on 6moon. I highly doubt his design chops "need" the blessing of 6moons.

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7 hours ago, Chris A said:

Just one word of observation at this point:

 

I see a consistent correlation of user preference between output power of First Watt (and Pass Lab) amplifiers and those that use passive crossovers in their loudspeakers when talking about First Watt amplifiers.  The F3 is rated as a 15 w/channel unit, while the XA25 is 25 w/channel.  Even the other First Watt amplifiers seem to be preferred by those using passives according to the amplifier's output power.  I think that NP also sees this but still consistently puts out lower power amplifier models, as well as responding to customer demand for higher power output (ref. the F5 amplifier that got rave reviews over the F3, but NP has apparently been quoted as preferring the F3 over the F5). 

 

Note that NP started First Watt not to compete with Pass Labs, but to offer low power alternative amplifiers with simplified topologies to explore that end of the amplifier design domain.  If you're not dumping power into passive crossovers in order to equalize midrange and tweeter drivers/horns down to woofer "sensitivities", then I think that your opinions of the various First Watt amplifiers might differ a little bit...

 

YMMV.

 

Chris

 

--- I'm not exactly sure here but are you saying other FW amps, not the F3, are preferred over of the XA25 for any user of passively driven speakers? Lets say that is want you mean and that all these "users" have heard each and every F-Series and the XA. Doubtful at best. At least I have the F3 and the XA and can make a rightful comparison. Even the flowery Srajan favors the XA while others have claimed it may be the best Pass amp ever. I like 'em both, they sound different and both quite good.

I do find it puzzling that in a small attempt to help JWC shed light on the many workings of Pass designs there seems always to be the need to show ones prowess in technical skills. Frustrating in the least, head scratching at best but in no way unexpected. 

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The confusion is growing since we are mixing several different things into the mix.

 

The older Zen amps were designs offered to educate folks about amplifier design and get their feet wet building amplifiers. That educational effort continues with the Amp Camp Amplifiers (ACA). Although they might have some nice sonic qualities, they are not meant to be the "ultimate answer". Most of them provide very little power (wattage).

 

The amplifiers from Pass Laboratory are commercial offerings with sufficient refinement and power that they can be used to drive many different and difficult kinds of speakers. They will provide loads of power, but they have a hefty price tag.

 

The First Watt amplifiers are also designed by Nelson Pass and meant to "explore" different kinds of circuits. The downside is that the circuits generate a great deal of heat and are not easily scaled up to deliver very much power (typically between 15-25 watts). When introduced, only small number of these are manufactured, and when the stock is depleted another circuit is designed and the previous circuit is then published and  provided to the DIY community (via the DIYaudio store along with a chassis etc) . With greater difficulty, the DIYer might be able to get the necessary parts through various "group buys" or recommendations (some of the tricky parts may be obtainable on the DIY audio store but this is sporadic). Getting some of these parts part is not trivial due to counterfeiting and misinformation. Substituting parts is not recommended.

 

In sum, the First Watt products are available via Reno HiFi (the sole distributer for new factory units and a frequent distributer for used factory units). To make one yourself, which I encourage, you will need to educate yourself about the process and the product. This will then be followed by patience while you gather the pieces together. It will not be a quick turn around.

 

Good Luck,

-Tom

 

 

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38 minutes ago, richieb said:

I'm not exactly sure here but are you saying other FW amps, not the F3, are preferred over of the XA25 for any user of passively driven speakers?

No, I'm not.

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Guest wdecho
57 minutes ago, richieb said:

 

--- it would hard to debate Srajan use of prose in his writings, they are indeed "descriptive" at best. I only offered this as a format to read a bit on each model for after cutting though the verbage each is aptly described. And for whatever reason Pass seems to have full confidence in allowing first reviews to happen on 6moon. I highly doubt his design chops "need" the blessing of 6moons.

Probably more to do with the quantity of high end components they test and review. Srajan is not the only one that reviews NP amplifiers, just one of them. I find it hard to understand what he is trying to say in his prose but I guess some can and do. His verbiage is over my head to a large degree, trying to understand exactly what is meant. 

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On 5/12/2018 at 7:58 AM, jwc said:

I couldnt resist and bought one of these. It arrived earlier in the week and have to say it sounds awesome. Easily one of the best sounding amps that I have owned. I cannot comment on parts quality because I dont enough about them. I went to the builders ebay store and he has a wide variety of products based on classic designs from a clone of the EAR phono stage to clones of niam amps as well. I paid $299.00 plus shipping. But in his store I see what appears to be the same amp for 329.00 and 189.00. Maybe they are different but one wouldnt know from the photos or the listing.

Cant comment on how long it will last but does it sound good.

3OHEB6OmTlKtbRov3J2vBA.jpg

  • Thanks 2

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On 5/13/2018 at 8:33 AM, thebes said:

not be rewarding the thieves who stole Nelson's Pass work

Said by the man wearing underwear made in "China" with a design stolen from a now defunct US underwear maker LOL. :)

 

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2 hours ago, joshnich said:

I couldnt resist and bought one of these.

So can you paste the link of your purchased Ebay item?

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On 6/2/2018 at 4:51 PM, JL Sargent said:

Said by the man wearing underwear made in "China" with a design stolen from a now defunct US underwear maker LOL. :)

 

Hmm. Let me see. Fell down. Let me try again. Nope fell down again. Maybe I should take them off before trying to read the label. 

 

I'll report back.

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21 hours ago, jwc said:

So can you paste the link of your purchased Ebay item?

In looking at the link I did actually pay 329.00. The link that you posted is the one I used to make the purchase. 

 

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On 6/3/2018 at 6:39 AM, joshnich said:

I couldnt resist and bought one of these. It arrived earlier in the week and have to say it sounds awesome. Easily one of the best sounding amps that I have owned. I cannot comment on parts quality because I dont enough about them. I went to the builders ebay store and he has a wide variety of products based on classic designs from a clone of the EAR phono stage to clones of niam amps as well. I paid $299.00 plus shipping. But in his store I see what appears to be the same amp for 329.00 and 189.00. Maybe they are different but one wouldnt know from the photos or the listing.

Cant comment on how long it will last but does it sound good.

3OHEB6OmTlKtbRov3J2vBA.jpg

 

Very nice,  based on this I ordered one.  A mate is doing a full recap with Nichicon Muse and big Mundorf electrolytics with Russian silver mica in place of the 0.1 and 0.01uf film caps. Should be pretty special when done. Also changing the RCA's for better quality and repainting the amp black  :)

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The Aleph Mini is a DIY type amp anyway.  Pass Labs never released it. That said it is essentially the same circuit as the Aleph 3 with a few differences.... Besides 10WPC is far more suitable in my system than the 30WPC Aleph 3. To go a genuine amp by Nelson Pass with lower wattage I'd otherwise need to look at one of the First Watt amps and they're physically too large for me to fit into my system.

Edited by MattyW

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The diy amp camp amplifier does sound really good for what it cost to build when one considers it is a class A amplifier. The Amp Camp is a single ended amplifier which I call more the culmination of most of the Zen series of diy amplifiers with one output transistor only. Nelson called it hearing one transistor clapping. 

 

 

 

 

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