Jump to content
The Klipsch Audio Community
Sign in to follow this  
DizRotus

"Super Heresys" from HIPs

Recommended Posts

If you recall the unmolested raw birch La Scalas with full grilles a few years ago, this will give you a glimpse as to how Klipsch attaches such grilles.  The grilles are attached to the cabinet with staples and then screen molding is used to hide the staples.  Since these are being converted to Claude's, @ClaudeJ1, "Super Heresys." no effort was made to preserve the screen molding or the cloth

 

 

20180520_100745 (Medium).jpg

20180520_100915 (Medium).jpg

20180520_102631 (Medium).jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As mentioned previously, the plan is to convert these as somewhat of an experiment.  I will put round ports in mirror image in the lower corners of the backs.  Dense closed cell foam will be cut in rectangles and circles to be able to plug either the slot port, the rear port, or both.

 

The HIP's Type AA networks will be replaced with modified B2s.  The networks will remain outside the cabinets until all tweaking is completed.  It will be possible to easily swap the networks with my existing Supers to compare variables, such as autoformer settings, caps, etc.  The tweeters in these will be Crites' CT120s.  The tweeters in the existing pair are from KP-201s.

 

20180520_103504 (Medium).jpg

20180520_104219_001 (Medium).jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Temporary leads were tacked onto the driver leads so that the networks can remain outside the box.  The extended leads pass through the slot port.

 

FYI, the inductors were held down with steel screws, now replaced by stainless.  It pays to open old Heritage to confirm solid driver/horn connections and to check for such things as ferrous inductor screws.

 

20180520_121425 (Medium).jpg

20180520_114153 (Medium).jpg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Looks like you are off to a great start!

 

Do you prefer B or B2 (sounds like a line from Macbeth)?  I think I’ll get the parts for both and try both.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now that I look at the photos, I have some questions regarding the attachment of the woofers and squawker horns.  Jim, @jimjimbo, mentioned 8 hole squawkers as opposed to 4 hole horns.  Clearly, these aluminum horns are affixed by only 4 screws.  My thought is that it’s not a problem with the aluminum horns, but might be with polymer.  

 

The woofers are attached with 4 bolts and T-nuts.  Rather than adding 4 more T-nuts, my thought is to remove the T-nuts, fill in the holes, rotate the woofers slightly to avoid the old holes, and attach with 8 wood screws directly into the multi-ply.  I’m also considering using a router to mount the woofer and horns to the front of the motorboard.

 

Thoughts please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, DizRotus said:

Now that I look at the photos, I have some questions regarding the attachment of the woofers and squawker horns.  Jim, @jimjimbo, mentioned 8 hole squawkers as opposed to 4 hole horns.  Clearly, these aluminum horns are affixed by only 4 screws.  My thought is that it’s not a problem with the aluminum horns, but might be with polymer.  

 

The woofers are attached with 4 bolts and T-nuts.  Rather than adding 4 more T-nuts, my thought is to remove the T-nuts, fill in the holes, rotate the woofers slightly to avoid the old holes, and attach with 8 wood screws directly into the multi-ply.  I’m also considering using a router to mount the woofer and horns to the front of the motorboard.

 

Thoughts please.

Perhaps I don't understand fully what you are trying to accomplish, but why not just add 4 wood screws to the bolts and T nuts that are already there?  You mentioned polymer.....referring to what? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I would just build-up an industrial motorboard like is installed in my "flame twins" Heresys.  The industrial motorboard has the metal grille stapled to the front of it.  Then, a bead of silicone caulk is run around perimeter of the woofer hole of the industrial motorboard (about 1/4" outside the perimeter of the current motorboard, for a reason I will discuss later in this post).

 

Let the bead of silicone caulk set up overnite so that it can work as a silicone gasket which seals the industrial motorboard to the original motorboard when the industrial motorboard is mounted inside the cabinet using WOOD SCREWS.

 

The industrial motorboard has t-nuts mounted UNDER the metal grill, to use machine screws to hold the woofer onto it, once the industrial motorboard is mounted to the inside of the original motorboard.

 

The Industrial motorboard is made out of (approximately) 1/2" Baltic birch.  It will need to be notched out on its top edges to clear the mid-horn lens lower mounting flanges.

 

Then you mount the T-nuts which will hold the woofer to the industrial motorboard's rear.

 

Then you staple using HEAVY STAPLES the metal grills onto the FRONT of the industrial motorboard. 

 

Then you shoot the entire assembly textured black.

 

Then you run the black silicone caulk bead around the FRONT of the industrial motorboard.  Because it is caulk, instead of a solid gasket, it will fill-in the holes of the metal grille, so that when it sets up, it becomes a "squashable" silicone gasket in order to seal the industrial motorboard to the original motorboard using WOOD SCREWS.  Here is the "reason" I referred to earlier:  If you lay the bead os silicone caulk TOO CLOSE to the CABINET woofer hole PERIMETER, then you will SEE the bead once it has set up and become a gasket for all intents and purposes...why?  Because as you press doen on it when mounting the industrial motorboard, is will squash itself into view from the front of the speaker woofer hole...so...don't lay the bead in a manner that allows for that to happen.

 

Once the industrial motorboard is installed in the cabinet (using WOOD SCREWS, you use machine bolts to mount the woofer to the t-nuts you have already mounted to the industrial motorboard.

 

This all sounds MUCH MORE complicated than it really is, trust me!

 

Look inside any Industrial Heresy from the early days which has a metal grille over the woofer, but behind the CABINET motorboard and it will all fall into place on how it is made....and how it is attached.

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, DizRotus said:

 

Do you prefer B or B2 (sounds like a line from Macbeth)?  I think I’ll get the parts for both and try both.

You own the soup bowl, taste buds, and the salt shaker. It's only a extra capacitor, so not a big deal, parts wise.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, jimjimbo said:

Perhaps I don't understand fully what you are trying to accomplish, but why not just add 4 wood screws to the bolts and T nuts that are already there?  You mentioned polymer.....referring to what? 

 

Four wood screws to supplement the existing T-nuts would work, but not if I rout out  the motorboards and surface mount everything.  The T-nuts are ugly in any case and are unneeded if 8 wood screws are used instead.  By polymer, I was referring to plastic horns, i.e., not aluminum.  I feel the 4 screw to secure the aluminum horns are adequate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 minutes ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

You own the soup bowl, taste buds, and the salt shaker. It's only a extra capacitor, so not a big deal, parts wise.

 

The attached were pulled from posts by Bob Crites.  One is supposed to be a B schematic and the other a B2 schematic.  I don’t recall which is which without my notes.  There appears to be extra inductor across the tweeter leads on one; more difference than an extra capacitor.  Are these schematics correct?

 

EDIT: 16:00

 

My notes say the upper one is B2 .  The networks in my current Supers have the inductor across the tweeter leads.

 

888F6962-4F64-4DD7-88BD-7A456A3B2506.jpeg

01832CAB-CC36-434C-B830-B56E03EB8579.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The networks in my existing Supers started life as Type KP-2.0As.  With the assistance of Claude, @ClaudeJ1, and  Bob, @BEC, I converted them to what they are now.  I’m looking for the schematic used.  From observation, it’s clear to me they do not follow either of the above schematics.

 

It’s difficult to see from photo, but, other than the 3636 autoformer, the 68uF cap bridging the woofer leads is unique.  I’m starting to wonder if I failed to correctly follow the schematic provided by Claude and/or Bob.  Listening to the HIPs with the Type AA networks that came in them, they sound very good.  After a bit, I’ll switch to my Super networks for comparison.  I must find that schematic.

 

 

05B1A07B-2BA2-4633-93FB-4ED48451228F.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Now switched to the DIY Super networks.  They too sound excellent in the HIPs, perhaps better.  It’s hard to say.

 

This weekend I will haul the Supers onto the deck and mix and match between speakers and networks.

 

I just emailed Bob to order caps, CT120s, and 3636s.  Objectively, I know the perfectly functioning Alnico K77s are more than enough for these DJ abused 69 year-old ears, but I’m in it this far, why stop now?

 

I hope to get a friend over here for a second opinion.  I know what he’ll say when I ask for a second opinion.  He’ll say, “ . . . and you’re ugly too.”  I’ll be disappointed if he blows that toss up.

 

After a few songs I’m liking the DIY networks better.  I must find the recipe I used for these.  It’s on the hard drive somewhere.

 

0F499CB3-9881-4ECC-B756-5EF70E496956.jpeg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Listening outdoors is enjoyable and takes the room out of the equation.  The downside is competing with the mowers and blowers in this tight neighborhood.

 

This long shot shows the speakers, the umbilicals, the networks, the tiny $5 TDA7297 chip amp, and Pono. 

 

Now a plane is overhead.  Is there no peace?

 

B3DB2ECF-D25E-4119-A25D-5BA69366ED81.jpeg

  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You can't draw the schematic from the pair of crossovers you built?

 

Bruce

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, Marvel said:

You can't draw the schematic from the pair of crossovers you built?

 

Bruce

 

Yes Bruce, I can.  My concern is that I might not have correctly followed the schematic offered by Bob and/or Claude.  Reverse engineering a mistake is not progress.

 

Now I’m feeling, So What as Miles and Trane try to make me Kind of Blue.  Even if I failed to follow the recipe, they sound very good.  Perhaps the schematic deviated from B and B-2 and I did follow it.  I’ll locate it and solve the mystery.  I’d be surprised if Bob or Claude has a record of the DIY Super schematic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, DizRotus said:

 

The attached were pulled from posts by Bob Crites.  One is supposed to be a B schematic and the other a B2 schematic.  I don’t recall which is which without my notes.  There appears to be extra inductor across the tweeter leads on one; more difference than an extra capacitor.  Are these schematics correct?

 

EDIT: 16:00

 

My notes say the upper one is B2 .  The networks in my current Supers have the inductor across the tweeter leads.

 

 

 

My statement was incomplete, sorry I was only referring to the woofer section. Going second order on IT requires reversal of the polarities of the mid and tweet also, along with a cap change and the extra inductor, yes, the Schematics you posted are correct. I was pretty impressed with the original Super Heresy with a B newtork that I didn't bother to try a B2. However, when reading the "Dope from Hope," it appears Klipsch went through a great deal of testing before they released the B2 for Cornwall owners, so obviously they thought it was a huge improvement or they would not have offered an upgrade. I'm not sure the same performance gain would happen to a Super Heresy with a B2 because it's a different woofer AND mid horn, which is not as long as a K600 was, so it has a different phase relationship. All I can say is try it, one channel B and one B2. I can come by with my measurement gear also if you want. Two sets of ears and instruments should be able to come to a proper conclusion!

 

PS: My Jube Clones with TADs are ready for prime time if you want to swing by with your test recordings.

 

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, HDBRbuilder said:

 

This all sounds MUCH MORE complicated than it really is, trust me!

 

You’re right it sounds very complicated.  I’ll read it again several times and get back to you.  Thank you for the detailed reply.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yesterday, a package from Bob, @BEC, arrived with the caps needed to covert Type AAs to B2s, a pair of 3636 autotransformers, and a pair of CT120s.

 

I’ll do some experiments today outside on the deck.  Having the HIPs temporarily wired to allow the networks to remain outside the boxes will allow me to quickly go from the Alnico K77s in the boxes to the CT120s on top of the boxes, similar to what Bruce, @Marvel, did with his La Scalas.  

 

While I’m experimenting, I’ll take a stab at time aligning the tweeters as Bruce did.  Since his La Scalas’ 400 horns are much longer than the HIPs’ 600 horns,  I suspect the time alignment issue will be subtle, if noticeable at all.

 

I have a pair of Eminence APT 50s with APT 200 baby cheeks horns I’ll listen to also.  When I first posted about making “Supers” from the Frankensmurfs, Bob sent me an email warning that all APT 50s are not the same.  The photo attached to the post was taken from the Internet.  He mentioned that some, if not most, of the APT  50s now made are “junk.”  My “Made in the USA by Eminence” pair have been languishing in a closet for years.  I hope they pre-date the “junk” Bob referred to.  Perhaps Bob can step away from the grille long enough this Memorial Day weekend to weigh in on the topic.  Photos of the various drivers will follow.

 

As you know, Bob is the man.  He included a set of red rubber K55 gaskets in the order.  That saves me a trip to the hardware store for hose washers.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 5/23/2018 at 3:22 PM, HDBRbuilder said:

I would just build-up an industrial motorboard like is installed in my "flame twins" Heresys.  The industrial motorboard has the metal grille stapled to the front of it.  Then, a bead of silicone caulk is run around perimeter of the woofer hole of the industrial motorboard (about 1/4" outside the perimeter of the current motorboard, for a reason I will discuss later in this post).

 

Let the bead of silicone caulk set up overnite so that it can work as a silicone gasket which seals the industrial motorboard to the original motorboard when the industrial motorboard is mounted inside the cabinet using WOOD SCREWS.

 

The industrial motorboard has t-nuts mounted UNDER the metal grill, to use machine screws to hold the woofer onto it, once the industrial motorboard is mounted to the inside of the original motorboard.

 

The Industrial motorboard is made out of (approximately) 1/2" Baltic birch.  It will need to be notched out on its top edges to clear the mid-horn lens lower mounting flanges.

 

Then you mount the T-nuts which will hold the woofer to the industrial motorboard's rear.

 

Then you staple using HEAVY STAPLES the metal grills onto the FRONT of the industrial motorboard. 

 

Then you shoot the entire assembly textured black.

 

Then you run the black silicone caulk bead around the FRONT of the industrial motorboard.  Because it is caulk, instead of a solid gasket, it will fill-in the holes of the metal grille, so that when it sets up, it becomes a "squashable" silicone gasket in order to seal the industrial motorboard to the original motorboard using WOOD SCREWS.  Here is the "reason" I referred to earlier:  If you lay the bead os silicone caulk TOO CLOSE to the CABINET woofer hole PERIMETER, then you will SEE the bead once it has set up and become a gasket for all intents and purposes...why?  Because as you press doen on it when mounting the industrial motorboard, is will squash itself into view from the front of the speaker woofer hole...so...don't lay the bead in a manner that allows for that to happen.

 

Once the industrial motorboard is installed in the cabinet (using WOOD SCREWS, you use machine bolts to mount the woofer to the t-nuts you have already mounted to the industrial motorboard.

 

This all sounds MUCH MORE complicated than it really is, trust me!

 

Look inside any Industrial Heresy from the early days which has a metal grille over the woofer, but behind the CABINET motorboard and it will all fall into place on how it is made....and how it is attached.

 

Andy-

 

I re-read your detailed post.  It now makes sense.  I’d like to get the expanded metal grills used by Klipsch to use in these and replace the Parts Express grills now in place in my DIY “Supers.”  I like the look of the expanded metal better, plus it seems like it would be more acoustically transparent than the PE grills.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...