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ALK Crossovers


Deano1974

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Hey Guys im just about to pull the trigger on some ALK crossovers ES700 and ES5800 networks for my Cornwall III's has anyone had experience with these and will they be a significant upgrade to what I have already which is the stock C/overs

 

Your help as always is greatly appreciated

 

Deano

 

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I don't know what the current prices are for the extreme slope crossovers are, however you might consider a used Electrovoice dx 38 (about $400) or a new behringer DCX 2496 (about $300)

 

I believe they are less expensive, have more flexibility, and can clean up some other problems (room issues, speaker balance etc). It would require an extra amplifier which need not be expensive (but folks spend way too much on amplifiers anyway). 

 

Just my opinion ....

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Significant upgrade on a new manufactured speaker... how do you define significant?

One thing is for certain, that the significance would be much greater on an older speaker/crossover.

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Significant upgrade on a new manufactured speaker... how do you define significant?
One thing is for certain, that the significance would be much greater on an older speaker/crossover.
Yes agreed! I was asking to see if anyone would confirm or clarify that the difference of a 3rd party CO compared to the standard would be a huge step up is sound quality

Not that I don't love the sound already, just asking forum thoughts [emoji16]

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Guest wdecho

From what I have heard about the extreme crossovers is that you really have to turn the volume up for them to sound good. Not something I would consider myself believing simpler is better. PWK liked the 1st order A crossover. The AA with the 3rd order crossover on the tweeter was designed to protect the delicate tweeter more than sounding better than a 1st order for the tweeter.  

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14 hours ago, Deano1974 said:

...will they be a significant upgrade to what I have already which is the stock C/overs

In some ways, I believe that third-party steep slope crossovers are a step backwards.  Their higher order filters introduce significantly more group delay and phase growth. 

 

I've found that the stock Cornwall crossovers are actually set up fairly carefully by Klipsch, and if you're not measuring the output frequency, phase, and group delay response (or you get Al K. to send you that information) then you're probably going to wind up with loudspeakers that sound less "together", but more resolving in the crossover regions around 800 Hz and 4-6 kHz.  Your choice.  You'll be spending a lot of cash to find that out.  You may like that trade. (I know that I wouldn't.)

 

Personally, if I were going to drop the kind of money that Al's high-priced crossovers command, I'd instead put it on a Xilica 4080 and tri-amp the Cornwalls, and a calibrated microphone (a UMIK-1).  I've found that almost all audio enthusiasts/tinkerers have extra amplifier channels available.  The difference in sound tri-amping (carefully) and time-aligning will be worth the money.  However, you'd need to measure the output of the Cornwalls to set up the Xilica properly.  That is the part where audio tinkerers usually lose their strength on (like Samson cutting his hair). 

 

Higher order filters I've found create problems addressing other problems.  I'd recommend going all the way, or leaving well enough alone.  The engineers at Klipsch know what they're doing, and you're actually messing around with the heart of the loudspeaker when you mess with the crossovers--especially the Cornwall. 

 

For me, a much better choice of action would be to release the tweeters from inside the cabinets then place them on top of the cabinets (still electrically connected to their crossovers) but time aligned at the back of the cabinets directly over the top of where the midrange driver is located.  This costs you nothing but yields a very large increase in the sound stage of the loudspeaker.

 

Chris

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In some ways, I believe that third-party steep slope crossovers are a step backwards.  Their higher order filters introduce significantly more group delay and phase growth. 
 
I've found that the stock Cornwall crossovers are actually set up fairly carefully by Klipsch, and if you're not measuring the output frequency, phase, and group delay response (or you get Al K. to send you that information) then you're probably going to wind up with loudspeakers that sound less "together", but more resolving in the crossover regions around 800 Hz and 4-6 kHz.  Your choice.  You'll be spending a lot of cash to find that out.  You may like that trade. (I know that I wouldn't.)
 
Personally, if I were going to drop the kind of money that Al's high-priced crossovers command, I'd instead put it on a Xilica 4080 and tri-amp the Cornwalls, and a calibrated microphone (a UMIK-1).  I've found that almost all audio enthusiasts/tinkerers have extra amplifier channels available.  The difference in sound tri-amping (carefully) and time-aligning will be worth the money.  However, you'd need to measure the output of the Cornwalls to set up the Xilica properly.  That is the part where audio tinkerers usually lose their strength on (like Sampson cutting his hair). 
 
Higher order filters I've found create problems addressing other problems.  I'd recommend going all the way, or leaving well enough alone.  The engineers at Klipsch know what they're doing, and you're actually messing around with the heart of the loudspeaker when you mess with the crossovers--especially the Cornwall. 
 
For me, a much better choice of action would be to release the tweeters from inside the cabinets then place them on top of the cabinets (still electrically connected to their crossovers) but time aligned at the back of the cabinets directly over the top of where the midrange driver is located.  This costs you nothing but yields a very large increase in the sound stage of the loudspeaker.
 
Chris
Thank you so much for your in-depth answer

So im happy to keep the stock C/O and give the tweeter postioning/relocation a try, thankyou so much for all the advice you guys have given me, very much appricated

A quick question, will I need to build a box for the tweeter?

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Guest wdecho

I agree with most everything Chris said. This week I bought a pair of full range Fostex speakers to play with, for the very reason of no crossover. Crossovers are a necessary evil in multi driver speakers. Generally less parts in a crossover, or amplifier for that matter, will sound best. Those expensive crossovers Al is selling is a total waste of money better spent elsewhere. I am sure Al would disagree but then he is the seller. I do like and have built his economy crossover with adjustable attenuation over stock Klipsch xover where an autotransformer is used. 

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Guest wdecho
8 minutes ago, Deano1974 said:

A quick question, will I need to build a box for the tweeter

No, just something to hold the thing upright. 

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No box is needed, but you might want to attach the tweeters to baffles to improve their appearance, and place a little absorption down on the top of the cabinet to reduce any issues with acoustic reflections.  It doesn't take much thickness of fuzzy material at 4 kHz to absorb destructive reflections.

 

Chris

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Ok noted thanks again [emoji4]

No box is needed, but you might want to attach the tweeters to baffles to improve their appearance, and place a little absorption down on the top of the cabinet to reduce any issues with acoustic reflections.  It doesn't take much thickness of fuzzy material at 4 kHz to absorb destructive reflections.
 
Chris


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Sorry question again, if i remove the tweeter from the cabinet will I have enough speaker wire to move the tweeter to the top or will i need to extend the wire

And do i need to cover the hole where the tweeter once was?

Sorry all the questions but im new to the mods with klipsch speakers

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Cover the hole in the cabinet with something as air-tight and stiff as you can easily find. 

 

I believe that the leads on the tweeters in my Cornwalls ('79 models) were long enough as-was, but it's a fairly easy task to replace them with longer leads if you need them.

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It’s a mistake to think you can simply pull the tweeter from the cabinet and time align it with the stock crossover. The passive crossover was designed with the location of the tweeter relative to the midrange physically and phase differences taken into account in the crossover region for the best optimization. If you change the phase/time/physical relationship between the tweeter and midrange the stock crossover is no longer optimized and could require a redesign.

 

I personally don’t know what slope rate the current design uses so another question for me would be what if anything are you gaining or loosing with the ALK..?

 

My suggestion is leave a well designed system alone.🙂

 

miketn

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2 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

It’s a mistake to think you can simply pull the tweeter from the cabinet and time align it with the stock crossover. The passive crossover was designed with the location of the tweeter relative to the midrange physically and phase differences taken into account in the crossover region for the best optimization. If you change the phase/time/physical relationship between the tweeter and midrange the stock crossover is no longer optimized and could require a redesign.

 

I personally don’t know what slope rate the current design uses so another question for me would be what if anything are you gaining or loosing with the ALK..?

 

My suggestion is leave a well designed system alone.🙂

 

miketn

I agree. I'm no EE, but I've owned time aligned speakers before (green mountain audio). There is a lot more that goes into this than just moving the drivers forward or aft.

 

Shakey

 

 

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6 hours ago, wdecho said:

PWK liked the 1st order A crossover. The AA with the 3rd order crossover on the tweeter was designed to protect the delicate tweeter more than sounding better than a 1st order for the tweeter.  

 

Roy has posted many times that PWK was working with designing higher order filters in his later years because he found there were many acoustical benefits when done properly.

 

PWK was persuing better sound until the end wherever that took him.

 

miketn

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To the OP: try it--if it doesn't sound better then you can easily return it to its original location--no harm, no foul.  I've tried it and measured it.  It's worth your time and money. IMO.

 

Relative phase is important (even for multiples of 360 degrees).  Finding out for yourself how that's true is just as important as "not touching the perfect design" for those wanting to understand about the subject a little more.

 

Chris

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