garyrc Posted June 9, 2018 Share Posted June 9, 2018 On 5/30/2018 at 1:47 PM, ODS123 said: The review was largely positive which certainly jibes w/ my own impressions of the Heresy III's. ..Still there's much about the review that annoys. It seems strange that one reviewer (Guttenberg) would tell another about to review a pair of speakers " (exclaiming) ..Those aren't audiophile speakers. Those are party speakers!" For one, what the hell does that that mean and why would "party" and "audiophile" being mutually exclusive? I'm an audiophile (of sorts) and I like music at parties, so...??? And two, how about one reviewer caring enough about his craft and enough about the reader to NOT taint a fellow reviewer with expectation bias by making such a strong and prejudicing statement? Wouldn't it be nice if reviewers were forced to share their initial judgements of speakers before knowing what they look like, their size, who makes them, what kind of drivers they employ or what has been said of them by other reviewers?? Perhaps hear them from behind a visually opaque but sonically transparent screen before being allowed to take them home for an extended listen? Do you think this would affect what we read? I sure believe so.. ...Hey, an audiophile can dream, can't he?? What you are suggesting is good science. Some people are allergic to it today. They seem to want confirmation bias. There is also the obvious conflict of interest when reviewing speakers (or other components) that are advertised in one's magazine. Extraneous, validity threatening variables can be controlled in just the ways you suggest, even when the judgements being made are very subjective and very much a matter of taste. Results of purely "subjective" methods, as the magazines define "subjective" (without most or all means of control) can always be added to reviews, at the end, along with a discussion of any differences in the two sets of conclusions. Some of the sentiment against A-B testing comes from concern about how we perceive when in "judgement mode" v.s. just letting the music wash over the perceiver for a long period of time, on different days in different moods, etc. That can still be handled, and could have been handled any time during --- what -- the last 50/60 years, ever since we stole ANOVA from the farmers. And nowadays there are at least two book-length collections (from APA) of means of analysis for multivariate, true experiments that could be set up to look at either group-wise or individual preferences, and detailed reactions to speakers, etc., without the overwhelming threats to validity that you mentioned. What you suggest would not be very hard to do. I just don't think they want to do it. Maybe somebody is doing that (several manufacturers probably are) but if the magazines are, it's news to me. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted June 11, 2018 Share Posted June 11, 2018 Anyone have a link to a discussion on the heresy iii here from other forum members points of view? I just got a pair and in my room, I am BLOWN away. The Soundstage is HUGE, muds and highs ad very smooth and I was stunned on the bass. I don't care what the number is on paper I am flat out impressed without a sub 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiliconTi Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 On 6/8/2018 at 11:45 PM, garyrc said: There is also the obvious conflict of interest when reviewing speakers (or other components) that are advertised in one's magazine. I have never seen a Klipsch ad in Stereophile... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK Thom Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 1 hour ago, SiliconTi said: I have never seen a Klipsch ad in Stereophile... Might be a good place for advertising the Heritage and Palladium lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 On 5/28/2018 at 2:40 PM, JohnA said: Those guys have broken "on through to the other side". Hearing things no one else hears and they can't measure and then creating a narrative to justify why it can't be measured. I have admit to being undecided on that issue. I take it you are in the camp "if it can't be measured it isn't real?" My being wishy-washy is because I've never understood how someone can look at a chart and decide if a thing sounds good or not. I think some of you charts-and-graphs guys might be able to do that, but I sure can't. My common sense says you can hear things that can't be measured but (duh) I don't have any data to back that up! 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK Thom Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 26 minutes ago, wvu80 said: I have admit to being undecided on that issue. I take it you are in the camp "if it can't be measured it isn't real?" My being wishy-washy is because I've never understood how someone can look at a chart and decide if a thing sounds good or not. I think some of you charts-and-graphs guys might be able to do that, but I sure can't. My common sense says you can hear things that can't be measured but (duh) I don't have any data to back that up! I will always trust my lying ears over measurments. I use them (measurments), as a rough guide for basic parameters of the overall speaker. There is often truth in the old adage, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiliconTi Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 13 hours ago, YK Thom said: I will always trust my lying ears over measurments. I use them (measurments), as a rough guide for basic parameters of the overall speaker. There is often truth in the old adage, the whole is greater than the sum of its parts. I agree. The specs are interesting, as in it is interesting to see how something measure as to how the maker says it should, but in the end, it is your ears that are the final "measurement". I like that Stereophile has the hard core measurements and the "emotional" measurements. Gives one more info that way. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiliconTi Posted June 12, 2018 Author Share Posted June 12, 2018 14 hours ago, YK Thom said: Might be a good place for advertising the Heritage and Palladium lines. Heritage for sure. They are still great speakers and are reasonably priced in today's market. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted June 12, 2018 Share Posted June 12, 2018 14 hours ago, wvu80 said: I have admit to being undecided on that issue. I take it you are in the camp "if it can't be measured it isn't real?" My being wishy-washy is because I've never understood how someone can look at a chart and decide if a thing sounds good or not. I think some of you charts-and-graphs guys might be able to do that, but I sure can't. My common sense says you can hear things that can't be measured but (duh) I don't have any data to back that up! I don’t believe that measurements are everything, but I do believe that if the differences people claim to hear between speakers, cables, amplifiers, cd players, etc. can’t be reliably identified while blinded, then the differences aren’t really there.. just mho 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YK Thom Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 10 hours ago, SiliconTi said: Heritage for sure. They are still great speakers and are reasonably priced in today's market. Especially in the stratospheric world of prices most equipment reviewed seems to be residing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted June 13, 2018 Share Posted June 13, 2018 On 6/11/2018 at 5:18 PM, SiliconTi said: I have never seen a Klipsch ad in Stereophile... Right, and I don't think there ever has been one, but almost all, or all, of the other speakers they have reviewed have either been advertised in the magazine, or that particular manufacturer has had ads there, often regularly. Back when J. Gordon Holt was running the magazine, they talked about planning to review the Klipschorn several times, but never did, AFAIK. I foggily remember one of the "new" guys visiting a musician, who had Klipsch, and asking, "Why don't you have audiophile speakers?" Also I think they required the manufacturer to loan them the equipment they were going to review, and I think I heard Klipsch didn't like that because it gave unscrupulous companies a chance to submit "High Test" specimens. In recent years, they reviewed La Scala II, Palladium, Heresy III, and one other, I think. Can anyone confirm or contest my recollections? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pzannucci Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 On 6/13/2018 at 4:15 AM, garyrc said: Right, and I don't think there ever has been one, but almost all, or all, of the other speakers they have reviewed have either been advertised in the magazine, or that particular manufacturer has had ads there, often regularly. Back when J. Gordon Holt was running the magazine, they talked about planning to review the Klipschorn several times, but never did, AFAIK. I foggily remember one of the "new" guys visiting a musician, who had Klipsch, and asking, "Why don't you have audiophile speakers?" Also I think they required the manufacturer to loan them the equipment they were going to review, and I think I heard Klipsch didn't like that because it gave unscrupulous companies a chance to submit "High Test" specimens. In recent years, they reviewed La Scala II, Palladium, Heresy III, and one other, I think. Can anyone confirm or contest my recollections? No actual reviews of Heritage though: - La Scala II semi reviewed by Sam T - Made recommended components restricted lf class A - Palladium P-39 reviewed and loved- Made recommended components restricted lf Class A - Palladium P-17b reviewed and loved - Made recommended components restricted lf class A Seems focus is on newer style speakers but Klipsch had made a presence. Not a terrible showing. 2 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SiliconTi Posted June 14, 2018 Author Share Posted June 14, 2018 What I really appreciate is that the Heritage line are still great speakers all these decades later. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Press is what you raked it for with a mouthful of salt. Your ears will tell you EVERYTHING else 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MEH Synergy Posted June 14, 2018 Share Posted June 14, 2018 Make of it * 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Travis In Austin Posted June 17, 2018 Moderators Share Posted June 17, 2018 Pretty good article. Here is the link https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-119-ken-micallef-june-2018 Here is photo of last part about Khorns changing her life. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 17 hours ago, dwilawyer said: Pretty good article. Here is the link https://www.stereophile.com/content/listening-119-ken-micallef-june-2018 That comment about the Khorns sure hIghtens my interest in hearing a pair But I don't understand the remark: "Choosing the correct ancillary components is a must with the Heresy" Why?!! Given their very high efficiency, I can't imagine ANY modern day amplifier having difficulty cleanly driving them to ear-damaging levels. Though I generally use my McIntosh MA6600 to drive my cornwalls, I did - just for fun - listen to them with the $100 50w AudioSource AMP 100 integrated I use for my deck speakers. ..And they sounded just as terrific - clean, clear, smooth, and to insane volume levels. AudioSource AMP 100 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 2 hours ago, ODS123 said: HIghtens my interest in hearing a pair of Horns.. But I don't understand the "Choosing the correct ancillary components is a must with the Heresy" remark. I'm assuming he's talking about amplification? I can't imagine any modern day amplifier having any difficulty cleanly driving them to ear-damaging levels. Though I generally use my McIntosh MA6600 to drive my cornwalls, I did - just for fun - listen to them with the $100 50w AudioSource AMP 100 integrated I use for my deck speakers. ..And they sounded just as terrific - clean, clear, smooth, and to insane volume levels. AudioSource AMP 100 It probably would not be clean SPL that would be the issue. By my calculations, Heresy III should be able to produce THX's Reference Level SPL from a main speaker (rather than from a subwoofer) of 105 dB at 30 to 50 watts at 13 feet in a normal room (neither dead nor live, about 3,000 cu ft.). That would be 105 dB continuous, through the H III's woofer, but I wouldn't recommend that with any speaker. Parenthetically, I would think that the Heresy III would need a subwoofer. So, now we have the problem of decoding what the reviewer meant. I'm guessing he means, perhaps without realizing it, that the Heresy III, and other speakers with a horn midrange and treble, do not veil or gild the sound as much as many so-called "High end" speakers do, so, he is warning that they may be too revealing. A worry is that they may expose the Achilles Heal of certain components, such as phono cartridges/arms, listening rooms, and amplifiers. These components get blamed for a lot, as do speakers, especially horn speakers. IMO, it's time we faced the inconvenient truth that, "It's the recordings, stupid!" I imagine we all have favorite recordings that are not only beautiful, but essentially flaw free. I imagine we all have some harsh recordings for which the CD medium (itself), solid state electronics, or horn speakers unfairly get the blame. With direct radiating mid and high frequency speakers, the imbalance, and harshness of recordings that have the frequencies between about 800 and 5k boosted, sometimes savagely, may be partially covered up, blurred, and concealed, by over-excursion (Doppler distortion, i.e., modulation distortion) as well as a variety of other types of distortion. Horns are often clearer, so they may reveal the harshness. See Chris A's posts on de-mastering. As one of the characters in The Last American (a mid 19th century novella) says, "Truth is a bitter pill, but a good physic." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ODS123 Posted June 17, 2018 Share Posted June 17, 2018 18 minutes ago, garyrc said: It probably would not be clean SPL that would be the issue. By my calculations, Heresy III should be able to produce THX's Reference Level SPL from a main speaker (rather than from a subwoofer) of 105 dB at 30 to 50 watts at 13 feet in a normal room (neither dead nor live, about 3,000 cu ft.). That would be 105 dB continuous, through the H III's woofer, but I wouldn't recommend that with any speaker. Parenthetically, I would think that the Heresy III would need a subwoofer. So, now we have the problem of decoding what the reviewer meant. I'm guessing he means, perhaps without realizing it, that the Heresy III, and other speakers with a horn midrange and treble, do not veil or gild the sound as much as many so-called "High end" speakers do, so, he is warning that they may be too revealing. A worry is that they may expose the Achilles Heal of certain components, such as phono cartridges/arms, listening rooms, and amplifiers. These components get blamed for a lot, as do speakers, especially horn speakers. IMO, it's time we faced the inconvenient truth that, "It's the recordings, stupid!" I imagine we all have favorite recordings that are not only beautiful, but essentially flaw free. I imagine we all have some harsh recordings for which the CD medium (itself), solid state electronics, or horn speakers unfairly get the blame. With direct radiating mid and high frequency speakers, the imbalance, and harshness of recordings that have the frequencies between about 800 and 5k boosted, sometimes savagely, may be partially covered up, blurred, and concealed, by over-excursion (Doppler distortion, i.e., modulation distortion) as well as a variety of other types of distortion. Horns are often clearer, so they may reveal the harshness. See Chris A's posts on de-mastering. As one of the characters in The Last American (a mid 19th century novella) says, "Truth is a bitter pill, but a good physic." Wow, thanks for an informative and thoughtful post. ..Not much to disagree with. And if I could, I'd like to point to another (if a bit tangential) inconvenient truth.. Which is, some instruments ARE harsh sounding when heard live if heard too long and from too close. Hence, these instruments can and will fatigue a listener when played on an accurate audio system. I mention this b/c I've heard it said of Klipsch Khorns and Cornwalls that they cause listening fatigue. From years of playing and listening to live music I can attest that live trumpets, flutes, violins, etc.. can and will begin to grate even in the best of venues played by the best of musicians, so to seek an audio system that NEVER causes listening fatigue is so seek an audio system than is not wholly accurate. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted June 18, 2018 Share Posted June 18, 2018 29 minutes ago, ODS123 said: Wow, thanks for an informative and thoughtful post. ..Not much to disagree with. And if I could, I'd like to point to another (if a bit tangential) inconvenient truth.. Which is, some instruments ARE harsh sounding when heard live if heard too long and from too close. Hence, these instruments can and will fatigue a listener when played on an accurate audio system. I mention this b/c I've heard it said of Klipsch Khorns and Cornwalls that they cause listening fatigue. From years of playing and listening to live music I can attest that live trumpets, flutes, violins, etc.. can and will begin to grate even in the best of venues played by the best of musicians, so to seek an audio system that NEVER causes listening fatigue is so seek an audio system than is not wholly accurate. Agree completely! I used to play in an orchestra. When we played certain selections (e.g., The Great Gate of Kiev from Pictures) the brass peeled the paint off the walls! With other selections (1812) when we tried to imitate 20 ton church bells, using oversized chimes and some recordings (bells of Harkness tower at Yale, played at regular speed and half speed (to halve the pitch) played over pooled hi fi equipment back stage, you might say that in that case we pealed the paint off the walls. The (recorded) cannon was impressive, too. It made the curtains blow in the wind. I'd like to see some sweet little high end speaker do that. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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