Chris A Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 The same plot for the KPT-Jubilee-535 (the 3-way Jubilee with the K-510 HF module on top): Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Well it is almost impossible to get more than a few degrees off axis in my room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted May 30, 2018 Share Posted May 30, 2018 Ten degrees? Plus the effects of inconsistent early reflections vs. frequency in that band due to those narrow polars. I find that the midbass and lower midrange presence/clarity is much higher using a loudspeaker with consistent and controlled polars throughout the 100-500 Hz region. You should go listen to the Danley Synergies to hear what I'm talking about. It isn't subtle. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mark1101 Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 Well if I am reading you right then there are no Klipsch bifurcated horn woofer speaker systems that would meet those expectations. But you have Jubs. I can only imagine your pain from the beaming. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted May 31, 2018 Share Posted May 31, 2018 No, there is one that doesn't have the issue: the La Scala bass bin--which is horn-loaded bass bin that doesn't have a truncated mouth. A dual-mouth bass bin closure into one aperture is something that I believe draws many people to that particular bass bin design. Chris 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paducah Home Theater Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 On 5/30/2018 at 9:23 AM, jwc said: It appears to me that the majority of the Jubilee owners here are XO their Jubes at 400Hz. Why would you pick one LF over the other if you were to put the current K402 horn/B&C691 driver on top? Regardless whether active or passive. Assume Khorn had a Back built onto it like some have done on their own or like the modern production Khorn has. I've been under the impression that the upper extension of the jubilee bass bin is what enables the 2-way design to work well. Below is a graph of a K-horn (black) vs. Jubilee (red) with no crossover applied, that's just the natural response. By the time you get to 700 hz that's a 15 db difference. Getting the response to extend above 500 hz was one of the biggest driving forces in designing the jubilee cabinet in the first place, but yeah they used to have a higher crossover point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 The issue remains that the plot you posted is showing on-axis response only. If you get 15+ degrees off-axis, the high frequency response above 210 Hz changes significantly (i.e., less SPL). This encourages crossing at the lowest frequency that the K-402/2" compression driver can cover since its polar coverage is ~90 degrees by ~60 degrees at those frequencies (250-500 Hz). This is like having three bass bins in each room corner--one with very good polars and frequency response but with very narrow coverage horizontally, and two on either side of the center bin having poor frequency response above 210 Hz: The Khorn bass bin is reportedly worse in terms of its HF polar coverage lobing (from the JAES article by PWK and Roy) due to the increased spacing of the two horn mouths and their increased splay angle relative to the Jub bass bin. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 4 hours ago, MetropolisLakeOutfitters said: I've been under the impression that the upper extension of the jubilee bass bin is what enables the 2-way design to work well. Below is a graph of a K-horn (black) vs. Jubilee (red) with no crossover applied, that's just the natural response. By the time you get to 700 hz that's a 15 db difference. Getting the response to extend above 500 hz was one of the biggest driving forces in designing the jubilee cabinet in the first place, but yeah they used to have a higher crossover point. I would agree. That was the impression I got when hearing of the Jubilee and why it was created. PWK wanted a 2 way setup and wanted a Higher XO point of the LF. However, After starting this thread, I forgot about those distortion measurements. I would be curious to see what "acoustical XO point" would be chosen if the K402 was placed on top of the Khorn. Sounds to me...that the Khorn can work as two way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Edgar Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 1 hour ago, Chris A said: The Khorn bass bin is reportedly worse in terms of its HF polar coverage lobing (from the JAES article by PWK and Roy) due to the increased spacing of the two horn mouths and their increased splay angle relative to the Jub bass bin. See my "thought experiment" post from 12/8/2007: https://community.klipsch.com/index.php?/topic/89015-jubilee-alternate-folding/&tab=comments#comment-965018 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 Yes, your idea is another way to close the spacing between the two horn mouths... or like was posted above to extend the horn mouth until the two-mouth closure is achieved (a solution that could be added to their Jub bass bins--adding a "nose") to look more like this...with the two horn mouths fully rejoined: If starting a horn-loaded bass bin design from scratch again today, I'm really not sure why one would use bifurcated bass bin horns now we're aware of the effects of off-axis polars on the sound of the mid-bass and midrange from these bass bin types. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 They are what there are. To build a Corner horn at 24" depth to hit sub 40Hz notes is very difficult. I've done it but never shown it here. So they are both bifurcated and that can be one of the many compromises. This thread has reminded me of some things I forgot......since I'm not scratching down design ideas all the time. My mind has been in other places for the last several years. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chris A Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 12 minutes ago, jwc said: To build a Corner horn at 24" depth to hit sub 40Hz notes is very difficult. Yes. That's a good frequency to cross over to a subwoofer, I've found. But having some overlap with the sub is required--so it must go lower--like 30 Hz. The issue really isn't how low the bass bin horn bins go, but how high. For instance, if you take a K-402 and put small 6" woofers on off-axis ports about 2" (axially) from the throat of the horn, then you can run the K-402 down to 200 Hz...no sweat...and avoid the midbass/midrange polar problem altogether. Those off-axis ports also load better at lower frequencies than if the small cone driver(s) are located at the throat (see Danley's paper on the subject, pg. 4). It's a cheap way to split the problem into separate issues without significant compromise. It may be possible to set up a passive crossover for these extra two off-axis drivers, too, since they will be time-aligned as-is. Chris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jwc Posted June 5, 2018 Author Share Posted June 5, 2018 Yes. I see. I'm not interested in re-exploring new designs with this thread. I was needing a recap of Jube VS Khorn again. In the past this generated nasty arguing. I got the answers I needed. Thanks all. jc Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikebse2a3 Posted June 5, 2018 Share Posted June 5, 2018 First let’s put some things into perspective and that is if the bifurcated mouth when used in the average listening room was so detrimental how has the KHorn survived for over 72 years..🙂 Don’t get me wrong though in that in theory a single mouth with coverage angles kept in mind would be a design goal if a worse compromise didn’t develop while trying to achieve that goal. I believe it also is important to keep in mind that the comb filtering effects due to the bifurcated mouth is one of almost incalculable amounts that occurs when even a single source loudspeaker is placed in a listening room yet our ear/brain system has the ability to ignore as well as fill in the missing information or sound reproduction wouldn’t even be possible in the home. jwc I wouldn’t have a problem using a K402 with the Khorn LF but I would also close in the back of the LF like the 60th version so that I could rotate the system to optimize the loudspeaker/room/listener integration. miketn 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AHall Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 I’d love to see some 510 horns on top of my old khorns soon now that I have jubes in my living room. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moray james Posted June 23, 2018 Share Posted June 23, 2018 the fifteen inch woofer in a Khorn starts to get into the soup starting at about 325 Hz and that is the very reason that the Jubilee was designed to have a wider available bandwidth so you could cross to a more domestic size mid horn. There are other horn designs which will get you where you are going like the University and one by Ernst Georg Beck called the California are two good examples. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noviygera Posted April 9, 2019 Share Posted April 9, 2019 Perhaps it's a better idea to use LaScalas below K-402 and stick a Jubilee in a corner to cover below 60hz? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Islander Posted April 10, 2019 Share Posted April 10, 2019 I haven't had the fortune to hear Jubilees, but the La Scala IIs with 402s on top sound pretty good, plus I just upgraded mine to K691 drivers a couple of weeks ago, which improved the sound quality a bit more. Using a Jubilee as a subwoofer doesn't sound like the best use of one, when there's a big selection of subs already on the market. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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