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Recommendation for speaker a little less bright than RP-260F?


rjp

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I recently bought a pair of Klipsch RP-260F for 2 channel stereo listening with my Dynaco VTA70 tube amp and spotify streaming audio and LP.

 

At first I thought they were the best speakers I had ever heard. I was hearing music like I'd never heard before, but after about a week my ears started becoming more and more sensitized to a certain harshness in the sound that I did not like. Sorry to use the "H" word but I'm not sure how else to describe it. I feel like I want to love these speakers. They do have a lot of great qualities, and I might be able to temper them with a bit of EQ, but was wondering if I should just try something else while they are still eligible for return.

 

I already tried the Polk RTI a7, but in an A/B comparison the Klipsch were so much more clear and dynamic that it was hard to like the Polk even though they did present totally without any harshness. Sure, the harshness was gone, but so also was the excitement and the clarity. They sounded dull by comparison. I could also hear the resonance of the box. 

 

Is there a speaker that might be a little softer on the ears but still clear, dynamic, and inspired sounding like the RP-260?  Oh, and not too much more expensive. Maybe this is asking the impossible. 

 

The room is kind of "hard" I'd say. About 28 x 16. 10 ft high. Area rugs and leather furniture, 6 windows and small curtains. I realize this is a difficult room. I have tried the miniDSP 2x4 hd (an amazing product btw) and REW with the UMIC-1 measurement microphone to try to EQ out the harshness, but it is not been as effective as I'd like. I have better success with a simple analog Loki tone control box. 

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From a lineup perspective, the the RP series is known to be pretty laid back so moving to something like a Heresy is going to actually be much more 'forward' and exacerbate any system issues you may have. Typically in this situation its a good idea to follow the signal path and identify where the harshness may be coming from as Klipsch speakers are very revealing. Starting at the top here are some notes:

 

Source: Spotify- this is my go to streaming service and I am very happy with the quality. That being said, make sure you are a premium member and go into options and turn on High Quality Streaming, also be sure that "Normalize Volume" is turned off. This feature compresses the audio and has a noticeable adverse effect on the quality. Personally, I use a Spotify client called "Fidelify" as it allows you to use AISO output which I will describe in the next step.

 

DAC: I am not sure if you are using a laptop or AVR but if you are using the headphone jack on your computer the cheap sound card it will make music sound like a buzzsaw on Klipsch speakers. When I got my KG 5.5's I literally could only listen to Vinyl until I got a decent USB DAC. Even a $100 Firefly DAC will greatly improve your sound. Some USB DAC's allow you to work with an output called AISO which bypasses window's EQ and there is a small improvement there as well. If you are using an AVR it is hit or miss on the DAC quality and if its a TV is probably a pretty bad sound card.

 

Amp: Your tube amp probably has a fair amount of 2nd order distortion which actually makes the music sound warmer so I think this is already good as it is.

 

Room: Aside from your DAC, this is going to contribute a lot to your speakers sounding harsh. There are reflection issues that cannot be solved by any sort of EQ etc. First you mentioned leather couches, this is an issue especially if the back of the couch is above your head when you sit on it. Get a good soft blanket and drape it over the back of the couch for your head to rest on and it will absorb any reflections bouncing off the couch back into your ear. This actually makes a huge difference and I was very surprised when I first did it.

The second is room treatment which is a topic that can go on for hours. Personally, I found the easiest and most effective issue to address are primary reflection points. This is a point on the wall in which the sound bounces off and hits your ears a split second after the sound from the speaker. This will cause the speakers to sound muddy or harsh. Here is a good illustration of the primary reflections:

 

image.png.30c18240c36c4ec4bfb849fd3e4859d3.png

 

Its a good idea to have some kind of absorptive material like heavy curtains at this point where F meets the wall. To find this point, I have come up with a 'Laser & Mirror' system which works very well. All you need is a laser pointer and a small handheld mirror. Get a buddy and have him hold the laser pointer at the top of the speaker facing where your head would be when listening to music. This can be the point on the couch or you can tape a white balloon to the couch where your head would be. Take the mirror and hold it against the wall next to the speaker and have your buddy shine the laser on the mirror. Slowly walk the mirror along the wall away from the speaker while your buddy keeps the laser on the mirror and eventually the reflected laser will hit the listening position. (This is position where F meets the wall in the diagram) Mark this area with painters tape and try to find some way to get a curtain etc at this point. Do the same thing for the other speaker as well. This will greatly improve the clarity of your system and will help the harshness as well.

 

Anyway, I hope this helps. Klipsch are known for being unforgiving but once you get everything set up and balanced correctly, the end result is holographic sound and you can close your eyes and 'see' the band playing in your room.

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Thanks twk123. Yes, always highest bitrate streams and no normalization. Regarding the DAC, I am using either my iPhone 5s or my macbook pro analog outputs. From what I've read, the DAC in the iPhone beginning with 5s is as good or better than most stand-alone DACs I could buy.  I was surprised to read this but the article had a lot of technical distortion measurements to support this claim. If I can buy a better DAC I will. Have you any experience with the iPhone DAC?

 

Wall treatments are definitely a good idea as are the blankets over couches.

 

 

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Last night I bought a pair of B&W 683 S2 for comparison. I've been listening to them for hours now. At first I thought they sounded very nice, then today I hooked up my remote A/B speaker line switch so I could flip between the Klipsch and the Bowers and Wilkins instantly.

 

When I first switched to the Klipsch I thought maybe I wired them out of phase because the imaging changed so drastically from the B&W, but the wiring was correct. The sound stage on the B&W was focused in the center whereas the Klipsch was spread all over the room. After listening to both for a while I think the Klipsch was much better actually. The B&W sounded confined to the center. With the Klipsch I could hear all sorts of different instruments and subtleties in separation that all got blended together in the B&W. So I would say imaging and separation are clearly better on the Klipsch. I guess this is what's called soundstage.

 

The B&W did have a more substantial midrange. At first I thought it sounded boxier but I got to like it after listening for a while. Maybe it is the fact that the B&W are 3-way. The Klipsch does seem to be missing these calm smooth mids. However, as far as high frequency harshness (2K - 6k)  I think both speakers have about the same degree. Maybe the B&W a slight bit less.

 

These are two very different sounding speakers, but so far I can't say I like one clearly better than the other. They each have their good points. I love the clarity and imaging of the Klipsch (and the dynamic sort of live energy!), but I also love the mellowness of the B&W mids that are there to support the highs and fill in the picture (i.e., a drum sounds like the body of the drum and not just a sharp smack on its head).

 

Not sure I could ever give up the playful imaging of the Klipsch though even if the B&W do have a more refined overall sound. It's hard to go back after hearing that excitement. I see why people are hooked on these.  More listening required.

 

 

 

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Last night I bought a pair of B&W 683 S2 for comparison. I've been listening to them for hours now. At first I thought they sounded very nice, then today I hooked up my remote A/B speaker line switch so I could flip between the Klipsch and the Bowers and Wilkins instantly.
 
When I first switched to the Klipsch I thought maybe I wired them out of phase because the imaging changed so drastically from the B&W, but the wiring was correct. The sound stage on the B&W was focused in the center whereas the Klipsch was spread all over the room. After listening to both for a while I think the Klipsch was much better actually. The B&W sounded confined to the center. With the Klipsch I could hear all sorts of different instruments and subtleties in separation that all got blended together in the B&W. So I would say imaging and separation are clearly better on the Klipsch. I guess this is what's called soundstage.
 
The B&W did have a more substantial midrange. At first I thought it sounded boxier but I got to like it after listening for a while. Maybe it is the fact that the B&W are 3-way. The Klipsch does seem to be missing these calm smooth mids. However, as far as high frequency harshness (2K - 6k)  I think both speakers have about the same degree. Maybe the B&W a slight bit less.
 
These are two very different sounding speakers, but so far I can't say I like one clearly better than the other. They each have their good points. I love the clarity and imaging of the Klipsch (and the dynamic sort of live energy!), but I also love the mellowness of the B&W mids that are there to support the highs and fill in the picture (i.e., a drum sounds like the body of the drum and not just a sharp smack on its head).
 
Not sure I could ever give up the playful imaging of the Klipsch though even if the B&W do have a more refined overall sound. It's hard to go back after hearing that excitement. I see why people are hooked on these.  More listening required.
 
 
 

You said it when you said the B&Ws sounded refined. Klipsch sounds like live music and the B&Ws sound like speakers.


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I agree. Klipsch (even my modest RP-260F series) sounds a lot like live music to me. The dynamics and clarity seem to be the reasons why.

 

I now understand why Best Buy Magnolia Sound center does not have any Klipsch setup in their high end listening room. Once you hear Klipsch everything else sounds bland. I imagine B&W and the other pricey vendors will not allow it. It is hard to get someone to spend 10K on a pair of speakers when a 1K model is kicking its butt.

 

My reason for buying the B&W's is to see if after more extended listening would I still prefer the Klipsch sound or would the less aggressive sound of the B&W start to seem more pleasant.

 

I notice the serious audiophile reviewers all seem to shun Klipsch as not even being worthy of consideration. Why is this? Are they just not expensive enough? I find it hard to believe these audiophiles really think the sound is no good. So I'm thinking, what's wrong with me? Why don't I too like the more expensive "serious" speakers?

 

 

 

 

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https://www.stereophile.com/floorloudspeakers/klipsch_palladium_p-39f_loudspeaker/index.html

 

The LaScala II was also reviewed, and is a Stereophile Class A Recommended Component. Sam Tellig bought them after he reviewed them.

 

They tend not to review the lower end of things, because that's not what their readers are interested in.

 

Sound and Vision has reviewed a lot of Klipsch stuff over the years.

 

Your complaint is common. It's take a lot of work to get the best out of a horn set up.

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4 hours ago, Deang said:

Your complaint is common. It's take a lot of work to get the best out of a horn set up.

 

Thanks for the link to the Palladium review. Very interesting. Beautiful too!

 

Clearly Klipsch makes some amazing high priced stuff. I may try some of the Heritage line in the future especially if I come across a good used deal. But what about the Reference series? Are these even worth trying for 2 channel listening? I have search for opinions online and it seems rare to find anyone using the RP line towers ( 250F, 260F, 280F) for stereo. All reviews are geared toward HT. But I think they sound better than any speaker I've auditioned so far.

 

If I want to spend no more than 1800 for two speakers to use with a 35wpc tube amp, what would you recommend? I can still return the RP-260F if there is something better. I could also just keep these for a year while I learn more about what I want in speakers, then upgrade next year. I think I just don't know enough to make the best decision now. Which I guess is why I'm asking other people what speakers to buy ;)

 

What did you mean by "It's take a lot of work to get the best out of a horn set up."?  What work should I be doing? Are you referring to room treatment?

 

Thanks for any help

 

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On 5/30/2018 at 4:02 PM, rjp said:

Is there a speaker that might be a little softer on the ears but still clear, dynamic, and inspired sounding like the RP-260?  Oh, and not too much more expensive. Maybe this is asking the impossible. 

 

The room is kind of "hard" I'd say. About 28 x 16. 10 ft high. Area rugs and leather furniture, 6 windows and small curtains. I realize this is a difficult room. 

 

You need RF-7III's.  No really.  

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