Heritage Klipsch - that big "theater" sound and "HOM" ?

[karlson3]

i was noticing how vibrant a vocal from the late Peter Tevis singing a Morricone CD soundtrack "A Gringo Like Me" sounded on my Klipschorn with its K400 and K77.   It was like what one would expect for old school theater soundtrack - very operatic and pretty.   The same track on an Eminence B102 with Morel CAT378 sounded very "dry" and "small" - almost like recorded in a closet.  The version on Youtube sounded dry on my ISK HF2010 headphones.   I've not listened to my CD to know how it sounds on the headphones and common Soundblaster card.

 

It's been said exponential horns can have coloration from "higher order modes".  Would a modern waveguide sound less "reverby" on a

track like that then the old exponential horns?    I know I prefer that sound  to the little cone and dome thing and have some  love for the little K400.

[garyrc]

44 minutes ago, karlson3 said:

  Would a modern waveguide sound less "reverby" on a track like that then the old exponential horns?    I know I prefer that sound  to the little cone and dome thing and have some  love for the little K400.

 

I don't know, but I, too, have some love for the K400 or K401 with a K77 or K77F on top.

[karlson3]

when thieves made off with the tops of my old set of K-horns sometime in the 1980's,  I replaced those with Dr. Bruce Edgar's 250Hz tractrix with JBL LE5 and an Audax ring radiator on top.   That was pretty good  - but i also think PWK's K400 sometimes gets a somewhat bum rap and is a good horn in its own right.    I also like my Heresy I's K700 - Jimmy Martin sounds real good on those driven by a single ended EL34 amp as does Fritz Wunderlich.  My Heresy I are turned sideways, sit pretty high on shelves against

the wall and I keep the grilles off as those seem to reflect and muddy up things.   If too many old speakers get updated, it'll be like trying to find an antique car with original motor. 

[Coytee]

You might get a kick out of their K510 and K402 then. 

 

When I sold my Khorns (LaScalas which I still have were stored in closet), I replaced them and had the huge K402 on top.  Later, I want to a pals house and he wanted me to hear his Khorns (which by now, I'd not heard for 2-years since I'd sold mine).  It was the first time in my life that I felt they sounded "congested" (at pretty high volume I must add)

 

It really was an ear-opener.  It's made me wonder (and I don't profess to know the answer) if they have a range in db's where they can sound good....once you get past that range, they get overloaded and start to sound congested like I heard.

 

What struck me with great clarity all the sudden was I was easily listening to these levels of loudness (and more) at home and was not experiencing any of this congested sound.

 

It seems the difference between the 2" throat and 1" throat is not insignificant. 

 

Not knowing where you are, if you ever find yourself near Knoxville, I have the 402's on one side of my room and K400's (LaScalas) on the other.  Could do a quasi side by side.

[Chris A]

5 hours ago, karlson3 said:

It's been said exponential horns can have coloration from "higher order modes".  Would a modern waveguide sound less "reverby" on a track like that than the old exponential horns? 

One thing that you should know: higher order modes (HOMs) cannot exit the horn below about 4 kHz for a 2" throat horn, and about 8 kHz for a 1" throat horn.  The formula is:

 

                  f(hom) = 1.84c / 2πa

 

Where "c" is the speed of sound, and "a" is the radius of the throat.  That means that the sound of the HOMs will be much more like frying bacon than "reverby" as you put it. 

 

I looked for the Geddes reference on horn profiles, on diyAudio that describes when you get HOMs but I couldn't find it (it's probably in his book on my shelf, but I can't bring myself to search for it manually).  Basically the idea is that any off-angle looking into the horn where you cannot see the throat hole--that means that you've got curved horn walls, and that also means that you'll have a "horn sound" because of the extreme HF polars not being able to make it around the horn walls.  The K-510 and K-402 have straight-sided walls with flared mouths--tractrix flared mouths. 

 

If you're wanting a cheap approximation of the K-510 to try out (with suitable EQ applied to tame the 1-4 kHz hump in response, and a little HF boosting ramp filter on the 5-16+ kHz...just like the K-510 horn needs), here is a very good horn that's also very inexpensive and that tests very well in terms of its polars relative to the K-510:

 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Throat-Horn-Bolt-On-18-x10-For-Assorted-Bolt-On-2-Exit-Drivers-90-x-40-398-/231420420855

 

Horizontal polars with K-69-A 2" compression driver:

 

Vertical polars with K-69-A 2" compression driver:

 

 

Chris

[Khornukopia]

I have one mounted above my center channel La Scala bass bin. Vocals sound clear and natural.

 

 

Second picture is a different horn of similar size to show comparison with K-400.

 

[karlson3]

Thanks Coytee, Chris A and Kornukopia

 

can HOM show in frequency response plots ?

 

@Kornukopia - what is your horn driver and what kind of crossover do you have on that center LS ?

 

maybe (?) K400 + K77 brings out more detail than the Eminence B102 + Morel CAT 37-8 combo.    I don't play my K-horns very loud so the ~0.7" diameter throat isn't as strained than it might be.    I don't have any 2" format drivers and probably won't be able to afford one for quite some time.  For my lone RCA-Fan designed midbass horn, I have one of Danley's prototype Unity with Misco mids and B&C 1" CD which could be biamped - that would make a compact horn which assume would have "modern" sound.   I'm looking at the JBL 2384 30" horn but DJK said JBL only took it down to ~680Hz.    

 

I can't remember if the K55V has a peak on K400 around 9K or not - that would not help the frying

bacon matters - if the peak is there then a carefully tuned LC trap would help.

 

can sufficient EQ be obtained passively to keep up with a strong midbass horn?

are there any inexpensive 2" drivers which can make it down to 400Hz?

 

I have a one inch format  Gollehon horn - larger than a 511 - smaller than my HR6040 which has an ancient SAHF 1" driver for midhorn purpose

 - its probably got some of those HOM

 

Here's a little cheap ($12.95) waveguide which looks interesting at Partsexpress as part of their B-52 buyout.  The wall angles look around 60 degrees.   I think its about 14.5" wide max

 

 

[Chris A]

37 minutes ago, karlson3 said:

...can HOM show in frequency response plots ?

I suppose you might see evidence of HOMs in the harmonic distortion plots, but the real way to see HOMs is to take multiple measurements at regular intervals across the mouth of the horn while it is producing them.  You need a special measurement rig to do that.

 

Chris

[The Dude]

In regards to the horn Chris reference, I don't know if it was the driver I was using (EV DH1A) or the horn itself, but I wasn't that impressed.  I later received a first gen K510 with a B&C driver and found it to have a huge difference in sound. 

 

If your interested in a set of the horns Chris mentioned, pm me and we can work something out.

[Emile]

OK; discussion is a bit "beyond" my level, but just had to "chime in."  

First; re the K-55 horns.  Just picked up a pair of Heresy I's and I am AMAZED by the mid-range of these "little" speakers   The K-55's sound awesome in these cabinets.  Think my Cornwall I's have the same K-55 ... always loved the sound  

Second; re B&C drivers. YES; have B&C drivers in my KPT-904 horns ... K-691 horns?  These 2" voice coil drivers BLOW ANYTHING AWAY  

Cheers, Emile

 

edited ... said K-77 but was really referring to the K-55's

[karlson3]

here's  a K700 vs a couple of other horn/waveguide - all sitting on top of a box - no additional baffle with a cheap phenolic PRV driver and 15uF.  Tom Brennan used to sometimes compare the tone of a Heresy I to a circular saw.   I think it sounds real good with paper caps and single-ended tube amp 😁  The little Gollehon horn has sidewall angle of about 110 IIRC and beaming.  The Pyle is modern style waveguide so one can see the throat opening looking down the sidewalls.  That Pyle/PRV combo sure doesn't like being driven directly with a capacitor.   Maybe a 2nd order highpass would fix things. HOM or not - I've still got respect for PWK's Herritage midrange horns.

[Deang]

If you speak through the K-400 horn, the coloration is obvious. 

 

Speaking through a pure tractrix horn sounds more natural, but also somewhat dry and closed-in sounding. 

 

I was doing this back and forth thing with my kids, when my daughter says, “that one doesn’t sound as right, but I like it better.” 

 

I was hearing the same thing. The tractrix horn sounded “correct”, but the K-400 had a vibrancy to it that the other horn didn’t. 

 

The experiment was initiated over my concern that the Fc of the horn was too high for the network I was running. 

 

So, I put the K-400s back in. 

 

I started with Frampton Comes Alive, and it sounded outstanding. Considerably more dynamic and engaging (coloration be damned). 

 

My son said it sounded a lot better, and I thought so too.

 

Now, my listening area is a modest size, and I’m only 10-12 feet back. Still sounds great 15 feet back while standing. 

 

It’s not a high power, big room horn - but she certainly shines in my room. 

 

I’m using 35 watts of ultra linear. I’m totally convinced that Heritage sounds best with tubes. I’ve given up trying to understand this.

 

I dumped the K-77. It’s a nice sound - but the system can reach much higher power levels without inflicting pain by using the B&C de120. I think that’s a very nice sounding driver.

 

I apologize for inserting this subjectively based post into this technical thread ... 

[karlson3]

I know that's the case but don't think speaking through a horn is completely fair compared to compression driver. (Bill Woods would do that test with a conical)   Back in 1990 I ran Edgar's 250Hz tractrix horn - that would probably not honk/bark on the speaking test.   In the real world, and with tube amps these old exponential horns are reasonably good and worked with PWK's simple networks.   I'm old and want things to sound good - not necessarily "natural".  A lot of the music I like is not  coincident miced but rather multi-miced and some from the days when a whole chorus would be fully panned to one side.    I was not familiar with the Stone's "Exile" album til recently.  On my headphones it sounded dull and compressed - so i ran a track though my daisy chained Aphex Aural Exciter then to a DBX 3BX - that was much more involving and it seems strange to me that there doesn't seem to be any dynamic range expanders. physical or software when a lot of stuff is really squished down in dynamics.   I did see an expander advertised as part of a 78 rpm restoration software package but the demo would not work, saying the grace period had already expired.

 

with small horn/waveguide,  one can get some idea of possible coloration by holding their throat up to one'e ear and listening to a decent audio source why turning the waveguide on to off axis.  A modern waveguide then might sound more neutral than a tractrix of similar size and the traxtrix probably have a bit more beaming somewhere.  Does that make sense?  I'm uneducated - un-educate-able 

[Deang]

Lol. Great post. Yes, understand.

 

I’m also “uneducated”. But it doesn’t stop me from identifying what I enjoy. 

 

 

[Schu]

I'm surprised at the "Not much difference between a 1" and a 2" driver" comment... perhaps diaphragm material would make a bigger difference.

[Marvel]

15 hours ago, Deang said:

So, I put the K-400s back in. 

 

I started with Frampton Comes Alive, and it sounded outstanding. Considerably more dynamic and engaging (coloration be damned). 

 

My son said it sounded a lot better, and I thought so too.

 

Now, my listening area is a modest size, and I’m only 10-12 feet back. Still sounds great 15 feet back while standing. 

 

It’s not a high power, big room horn - but she certainly shines in my room. 

 

I’m using 35 watts of ultra linear. I’m totally convinced that Heritage sounds best with tubes. I’ve given up trying to understand this.

 

I have a feeling that in-home playback/listening levels have increased over the years. The k-400 on the LS sounds really good at low to moderate levels (helped a lot when I pulled the mids down, which also helped match the CT-125s from Bob).

 

Freddi - Most of the Stones albums, probably all, are severely compressed. I had Beggars Banquet, and the meters on my equipment at the time would not vary more than maybe 2dB. Of course, that kept the needle in the groove. That being said, played loud through direct radiators it sounded great. I'm thinking not so much through some good horns.

 

Bruce

[Chris A]

After reading Bruce's comments on the Rolling Stone's albums, I ran "clip fix" and "normalize..." using Audacity on all of the Sticky Fingers CD tracks. 

1. Before doing this, the album's DR rating was "10" (approximately the crest factor in dB for the album).  The ReplayGain level for the album was -6.24 dB (i.e, it's loud). 
2. After I ran clip fix and normalize, the album DR rating went to "12" and the ReplayGain value was reduced to -3.14 dB--which is right on the edge of what I'd call normal loudness.

So that's just over 3 dB of overall clipping (otherwise called "limiting"). I would guess that there was at least 3-6 dB of compression used before clipping, for a total of 6-9 dB of overall reduction in dynamic range from the original stereo downmix track before mastering. (That's more than normal, but nothing like today's levels of loudness on CDs and other download music.)

 

Here is the demastering EQ curve that I applied to the first track (a.k.a., Brown Sugar) :

 

 

The track sounds a lot less strident, cleaner and much more transparent, and a little more dynamic--more like the real thing now.

 

Chris

[karlson3]

Hi Chris A - - I assume the new curve will sound better on good speakers whose cutoff is only ~50Hz? - -That Aphex Exciter is a good gizmo and probably smoother than the Behringer knockoff.   It takes very little time to adjust the bass boost/bass compressor and "harmonic" knobs and with it daisy chained into a 3BX, there's some life put back into music.  Of course there may be some pumping effects if not adjusted the best but still the result seems more like what music seems.  I've not felt good for some time and don't listen much to music other than what's on Youtube.   On my other PC, I have a program called "CeeDeClip" that sometimes would help things.   Is your remastering - "sometimes" much like what is done with 78's at Diamond Cut ?  - they use some sort of subharmonic generator to get a semblance of lower bass out of acoustic era recordings.  I wanted to try their expander but the demo said expired as soon as opened.

 

http://www.enhancedaudio.com/millennium.htm

 

Bruce - when the Stone's catalog was first released on CD, it sounded so poor to me (think on my K-horns) that I gave a pile of their releases to a friend.    Although a long time ago I was  more "purist" with minimal gain stages, tubes, decent capacitors - no tone controls,   I now think often the audio signal may not be that sacred and that can be improved for the individual listener with these old gizmos (and sometimes some HF boost when dealing with old cassettes)

 

For users of solid state amplification (and tube if not bent totally on "purist"),  I really think the exciter could do more good than spending thousands on fancy high - end amplifiers.   Sadly, there seems no equivalent today for the 3BX.

 

[Schu]

Btw OP... I have that same soundtrack. One of my favorites.

[Khornukopia]

On ‎5‎/‎31‎/‎2018 at 1:10 PM, karlson3 said:

what is your horn driver and what kind of crossover do you have on that center LS ?

 

The K-55 with an adapter to the horn allows using the original crossover. I used the AL-4 with the K-55. I am now using an EV DC-One active crossover and am experimenting with some 2" drivers. The K-55 is a good compression driver.