Shakeydeal Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 I measured the distance from center to center of the speakers. 12' 8". When I mark off where the speaker axis crosses in my room, it is VERY close the the plane of the speakers. I tried sitting 6" back from this position. Although the center image was strong and palpable, anything going on to the sides of the soundstage is diffuse and strangely positioned. I do not like being so close to speakers, it feels as if the performers are sitting in your lap. So a position that is 3-3.5 ft. behind the axis seems pretty good. I know if my room were a few feet wider I could sit closer. What are you guys doing? How far back behind that axis position is ok before room reflections are too prominent? I don't really want to enclose the backs so I can angle them out. Any other suggestions? Shakey Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 2 hours ago, Shakeydeal said: I measured the distance from center to center of the speakers. 12' 8". When I mark off where the speaker axis crosses in my room, it is VERY close the the plane of the speakers. I tried sitting 6" back from this position. Although the center image was strong and palpable, anything going on to the sides of the soundstage is diffuse and strangely positioned. I do not like being so close to speakers, it feels as if the performers are sitting in your lap. So a position that is 3-3.5 ft. behind the axis seems pretty good. I know if my room were a few feet wider I could sit closer. What are you guys doing? How far back behind that axis position is ok before room reflections are too prominent? I don't really want to enclose the backs so I can angle them out. Any other suggestions? Shakey You are correct, it probably is room reflections, but there may be some other contributions also. Folks always discuss this in terms of distance, either between the speakers or to the listener. A better way to get a handle on this is to think in terms of angle not distance. A good ballpark is to keep the angle between the speakers relative to the listener between 40 to 60 degrees. Once it starts getting close to 75 degrees than various problems creep in and may require a center channel. If the angle is less than 40 degrees, or so, much of the stereophonic effect is lost. BTW, a great way to decrease the relative energy of the reflections re: direct sound is room treatments and toe-in of the cabinets. Unfortunately, Klipschorns are not really meant to be adjusted for toe-in (unless you use false corners or "half -corners") My experience is based on actually using Klipschorns. I was able to place them between about 45 to 75 degrees. With the larger angle I found a very nice effect using either a heresy or a cornwall in the center (a simple summed center with no "Home theater" stuff and dialed down several dB relative to the main speakers). Good luck, -Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share Posted June 7, 2018 They are close enough together that I have a distinct center image no matter how far back I sit. But I think the tonal balance might be better with less off axis sound. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxlwson Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Nice thing about the 60° rule is that it gives you an equilateral triangle. That means A=B=C. Take center to center measurements, then take that measurement out towards the center of that listening area. Another way would be simple plug in the values for Pythagorean Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share Posted June 7, 2018 59 minutes ago, alxlwson said: Nice thing about the 60° rule is that it gives you an equilateral triangle. That means A=B=C. Take center to center measurements, then take that measurement out towards the center of that listening area. Another way would be simple plug in the values for Pythagorean I have done this. Center to center is almost 13 ft. When I sit 13 ft back from the plane of the speakers I am about 3.5 ft. outside of the spot where the axes meet. That still seems a little close to me, but doable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxlwson Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 57 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said: I have done this. Center to center is almost 13 ft. When I sit 13 ft back from the plane of the speakers I am about 3.5 ft. outside of the spot where the axes meet. That still seems a little close to me, but doable. A=B=C. You have to solve for d, which is the centerline if you split the triangle. So you should be 11.26' away from the center point of the plane the speakers are on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share Posted June 7, 2018 3 minutes ago, alxlwson said: A=B=C. You have to solve for d, which is the centerline if you split the triangle. So you should be 11.26' away from the center point of the plane the speakers are on. My head hurts............ 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shakeydeal Posted June 7, 2018 Author Share Posted June 7, 2018 But why wouldn't you want to be at the apex of the triangle? 11 ft. still seems awfully close. Seems too close for the drivers to even integrate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxlwson Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 15 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said: But why wouldn't you want to be at the apex of the triangle? 11 ft. still seems awfully close. Seems too close for the drivers to even integrate. 11.26' is where the two legs of the triangle integrate, or the apex as you're calling it. I'm just doing the math. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 27 minutes ago, Shakeydeal said: But why wouldn't you want to be at the apex of the triangle? 11 ft. still seems awfully close. Don't be hesitant to experiment, to think outside the box. I had my Khorns in bad corners where a hallway ran in between them, the MLP was offset 5 feet closer to the left side speaker. Still they sounded good 13 feet from the MLP. The best they ever sounded is when I had them sold and I moved 5 feet from the back wall and towards the middle of the room close together so I could demo them if the Buyer wanted to hear them. There were NO corners, center of the room, a couple feet apart and about 7 feet from the MLP; they sounded phenomenal. With nothing in between the speakers I think the woofer sections acted synergistically and reinforced one another. If not for the waf forcing the sale I would have kept them, they sounded that much better than the corner loaded setup. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
alxlwson Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 19 minutes ago, wvu80 said: Don't be hesitant to experiment, to think outside the box. I had my Khorns in bad corners where a hallway ran in between them, the MLP was offset 5 feet closer to the left side speaker. Still they sounded good 13 feet from the MLP. The best they ever sounded is when I had them sold and I moved 5 feet from the back wall and towards the middle of the room close together so I could demo them if the Buyer wanted to hear them. There were NO corners, center of the room, a couple feet apart and about 7 feet from the MLP; they sounded phenomenal. With nothing in between the speakers I think the woofer sections acted synergistically and reinforced one another. If not for the waf forcing the sale I would have kept them, they sounded that much better than the corner loaded setup. Need more TV. Lol 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 It's a bifurcated bass horn, and you need to be at least 12 feet back for the bass to sum properly. Pulled away from the walls, response drops off rapidly at 100Hz. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 2 hours ago, alxlwson said: A=B=C. You have to solve for d, which is the centerline if you split the triangle. So you should be 11.26' away from the center point of the plane the speakers are on. yea or d = cos30 x 13' d = .866 x 13' d = 11.26' but what says i gotta be the same distance away from each speaker that the speakers are from each other? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PrestonTom Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 No, it is the distance back from the plane of the speakers if you want a 60 degree spread. Think of this as a "maximum angle" before other problems arise (generally speaking). If you sit further back, then the angle decreases. I would not suggest going much below 45 degrees, or else you start losing out on the "stereophonic fun" I would certainly not advocate pulling the Klipschorns out of the corner (or false corner) Before you get too worried, with my jubilees I have a 60-70 degree spread and I am only sitting about 8 feet back from the plane of the speakers. I think folks sometimes get overly concerned about sitting too close. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 The information I provided came from Jim Hunter. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Audio Flynn Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 31 minutes ago, Deang said: The information I provided came from Jim Hunter. Hunter is a quiet confident engineer. I infer PWK really liked him. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deang Posted June 7, 2018 Share Posted June 7, 2018 Information delivered over a quiet dinner in a Jazz bar in Indy - with a wink. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 8 hours ago, alxlwson said: Don't be hesitant to experiment, to think outside the box. Wouldn't that be, "Think outside the triangle? 1 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garyrc Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 On 6/7/2018 at 12:55 PM, Deang said: It's a bifurcated bass horn, and you need to be at least 12 feet back for the bass to sum properly. 12 feet straight back from the line that goes from tweeter center to tweeter center [12.25 feet in my set-up] OR 12 feet back from the L & R speakers, along the lines that form the sides of the triangle [13.4 feet for me]. If the former, I only have 1/4 foot leeway. Answered Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ACV92 Posted June 8, 2018 Share Posted June 8, 2018 Sorry, I dig this thread. Get out the measuring tape, apply some audio geometry, and have a listen. Too fun. Ahh, what lengths, no pun intended, we'll go to enjoy our tunes. Placement, placement, placement... If non-Horn user don't forget about toe in. You can spend days angling, re-angling, just to find that sweet spot of imagery. Move slightly from the back wall, reverse towards the back wall, toe-in half an inch more, or less, it's endless. I do like the triangle. Have fun Shakeydeal!! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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