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Tubes or SS for all-horn Klipsch Heritage


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It seems most here prefer tube amps for their high-efficiency Klipsch Heritage line speakers a la K-horns, La Scala and Belle's. What in particular makes the difference with lower wattage tube amps here compared to Solid State offerings in general? 

 

Myself I use the Solid State pure Class-A Belles SA-30 poweramp with my Belle's inspired Simon Mears Audio Uccello speakers, but have pondered converting to a tube-based amp - preferably an SET. One of the options I'm currently looking into is the Line Magnetic LM-210IA, its 8 watts likely plentiful with my 105dB sensitivity Uccello's. 

 

Please chime in.  

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8 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

You will not be dissapointed with the line magnetic. I am using a 518ia with a pair of klipschorns and this is a fabulous combo. Line Magnetic is the real deal.

 

Shakey

 

Duly noted.

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6 hours ago, alxlwson said:

Never could figure out pairing ultra efficient speakers with the most inefficient form of application. :)

 

It's certainly more evident than pairing the most inefficient speakers with the most inefficient "form of application" :) Indeed it's the obvious pairing figuring you'll likely only need up to the first watt or so, where SET's supposedly shine, not to mention others areas where all-horn speakers are said to be a shoe-in with the those glowing (and inefficient) tubes. Class D amps and the likes conversely have the juice to kick some life into the low to moderate efficient direct radiating speakers, not that they really succeed anyway.. 

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Tubes. Much of the Heritage line were designed for them, back in the days before solid state was a reality. They are designed very efficient because of this. The ancient tube amps didn’t put out much by modern standards. They seem to be voiced sharp and forward, which makes them sound very clear through tube amp distortion, the flip side being they can be seen as too bright for many people when using a very low distortion solid state amp. The modern Klipsch (reference), work much better with solid state in general.

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When operating within its envelope, i.e. not overdriven, a good amp is a good amp. 

 

If you run a little amp into clipping, a tube amp will sound better.  An 8 watt amp can just barely drive (1 dB of headroom) Khorns to 100 dB at 4 meters, a realistic level for an orchestra. 

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Ive grown to appreciate pull designs more and more.

SET amps (forgive the implication) are like a C*ck tease. All the tone/sound you could ask, but never enough of it.

Well designed SET amps can be just as quite as any other design, its the lack of significant horsepower that becomes a consideration. 

If in a small room or not trying to see how loudly  you can play, SET amps are incredibly pleasing.

But, a P-P amp has some feedback which will provide its own benefits. 

All the sonic benefits you find tubes in general are offered in great abundance with P-P designs. 

Im not a fan of Parallel Push Pull or Parallel SET but there are reasons for that... Ill leave it at the KISS approach as rule outs. 

Class A SS badass. 

SET Badass but not enough for most of us.

P-P Tube... just right.  (Dynaco ST35/ ST70, Rogue Chronus, MC275, nearly any KT88 P-P or EL84 P-P )

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5 hours ago, justinsweber said:

Ive grown to appreciate pull designs more and more.

SET amps (forgive the implication) are like a C*ck tease. All the tone/sound you could ask, but never enough of it.

Well designed SET amps can be just as quite as any other design, its the lack of significant horsepower that becomes a consideration. 

If in a small room or not trying to see how loudly  you can play, SET amps are incredibly pleasing.

But, a P-P amp has some feedback which will provide its own benefits. 

All the sonic benefits you find tubes in general are offered in great abundance with P-P designs. 

Im not a fan of Parallel Push Pull or Parallel SET but there are reasons for that... Ill leave it at the KISS approach as rule outs. 

Class A SS badass. 

SET Badass but not enough for most of us.

P-P Tube... just right.  (Dynaco ST35/ ST70, Rogue Chronus, MC275, nearly any KT88 P-P or EL84 P-P )

 

If you ever get a chance, listen to a Line Magnetic SET amplifier. It will confound you to no end. I recently compared mine to an 80 watt Cary integrated in PP mode and the LM at 22 wpc gave the impression of being the far more powerful amplifier. It also excelled at dynamics and tonal color. It's hard to believe just how good this thing is until you experience it.

 

Shakey

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Guest wdecho
5 hours ago, justinsweber said:

Ive grown to appreciate pull designs more and more.

SET amps (forgive the implication) are like a C*ck tease. All the tone/sound you could ask, but never enough of it.

Well designed SET amps can be just as quite as any other design, its the lack of significant horsepower that becomes a consideration. 

If in a small room or not trying to see how loudly  you can play, SET amps are incredibly pleasing.

But, a P-P amp has some feedback which will provide its own benefits. 

All the sonic benefits you find tubes in general are offered in great abundance with P-P designs. 

Im not a fan of Parallel Push Pull or Parallel SET but there are reasons for that... Ill leave it at the KISS approach as rule outs. 

Class A SS badass. 

SET Badass but not enough for most of us.

P-P Tube... just right.  (Dynaco ST35/ ST70, Rogue Chronus, MC275, nearly any KT88 P-P or EL84 P-P )

I can agree with most everything you say but in my moderate sized room I have not found a flea amp SET to lack in volume, but as you say it can depend on the listener and type of music one listens to in their size room. I do have and there are some SS push pull class A amplifiers with no feedback that are designed by Nelson Pass but they are quite pricey for the casual listener. Feedback is not that detrimental if you use it in moderation. An amplifier that requires a lot of feedback for relatively low distortion as a rule sucks the life out of the music and will not sound as good as one using very little or none. A well designed tube amplifier either PP or SET is the best bang for buck in quality of sound with our speakers unless one wants to damage their hearing with concert level sound repeatedly too often. It can happen. I have a friend that use to listen with big speakers with powerful SS amplifiers in a small room that is regretting it now in his senior years. One drawback I do not like in push pull 35 watt or more tube amplifiers is the maintenance and cost of output tube replacements every couple of years. I only have one PP tube amplifier it being an EL84 amplifier and it does sound very nice but I rarely use it when I want to listen to one of my many tube amplifiers preferring a single ended SET or pentode amplifier. But then my choice in music is tamed down from my rock and roll years of old. 

 

Lets not forget the newer D amplifiers available now. Excellent sound for money these days. 

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Guest wdecho
1 hour ago, Schu said:

Has Nelson started selling that sit3?

Has not been released for sale yet. When it is I will try and let you know. You can call Mark at Renohifi and I am sure he will contact you when it becomes available. Great sellers with a 30 day audition if my memory serves me correct. 

 

http://www.renohifi.com/pass.htm

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On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 8:28 PM, Shakeydeal said:

You will not be dissapointed with the line magnetic. I am using a 518ia with a pair of klipschorns and this is a fabulous combo. Line Magnetic is the real deal.

 

Shakey

For that kind of money it better be. Yowza.

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I was not a big fan of tube amplifiers, I thought they were old technology and not up to the task.

 

I was very wrong! One day I tried a push-pull Synthesis Roma 510AC tube amplifier on Klipsch Forté's and could not believe what I was hearing.

Finaly I was listening to music in all it's glory. Non of the solid state amps I used before could draw me in the music like this fellow.

 

I tried this tube amp on a wide range of Klipsch speakers, including Palladiums and there is simply no way back to solid state for me.

Synthesis Roma 510AC buizenversterker Mediaelectronics.jpg

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Yes, tubes... But I find Class T to be in between with some of the warmth of tubes but at far lower price. Seems everyone's mileage varies on this, but I've driven K'horns with little sub-100.00 Class T amps that put SS at any price to shame, at least for my ears. I don't hear "$$$$," just music. And the vast majority of SS amps sound alike to me. 

 

Dave

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On ‎6‎/‎8‎/‎2018 at 9:44 PM, alxlwson said:

Never could figure out pairing ultra efficient speakers with the most inefficient form of amplification. :)

Odd. Makes perfectly good sense to me.

On ‎6‎/‎10‎/‎2018 at 6:03 PM, YK Thom said:

They are designed very efficient because of this.

Not what PWK told me. The are designed efficient because of PWK's most basic rule: efficiency distortion -1


As to SET, I've driven my K'horns with 3w SET, and they played PLENTY loud...but the bass wasn't there on pipe organ. So, if you want bass and SET, you need a subwoofer IMHO. I am just as happy with an ST-70 which handles all nicely with power to spare.

Dave

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56 minutes ago, Mallette said:
On 6/10/2018 at 4:03 PM, YK Thom said:

They are designed very efficient because of this.

Not what PWK told me. The are designed efficient because of PWK's most basic rule: efficiency distortion -1

Yes Sir Affirmative Ding...Ding....Ding....  WInner...Winner....Winner

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