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Sprogk

Belle’s placement/lack of bass

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1 minute ago, Sprogk said:

 

 


I actually like that idea Larry. Two Khorns opposite corners of the 55ft wall and Belle’s centers! I like!

But what about that sump pump in the left corner of that wall? I can off coarse build that sump into a closet or little room to creat a corner. But then Jubilees would also work if I have two corners! I always thought that 55ft corners are way to far apart for corner speakers....

would I still need a sub?



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If you do the K-horns along the top wall, be careful that furnace room does not block the sound. K-Horns shoot 45 deg into a room and the right channel might hit the corner of the furnace room.

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If you do the K-horns along the top wall, be careful that furnace room does not block the sound. K-Horns shoot 45 deg into a room and the right channel might hit the corner of the furnace room.


I’ll do some measurements thanks again for all the valuable info


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Basement ceilings are often too low, but that is a solvable problem.  How high is your ceiling?  If lower than 8 feet, put a small amount of absorbent material (thicker is better) on the part of the ceiling that is a first reflection point as seen from the Main Listening Position.  Sit at the MLP and have someone hold a flat, light weight mirror FLAT against the ceiling.  Be careful!  If you can see the speaker in the mirror, that's the spot to put the absorber.  Repeat for each speaker, but don't rinse.  Some people would suggest doing the same for the FRPs on the side walls, also.  Others would not.

 

You do need to break up and/or absorb the reflections over most of those walls, and put carpeting or area rugs on the floor.  Use absorbers and diffusers (see acoustical catalogs, perhaps make them yourself -- search this forum and others, under DIY absorbers / diffusors), use book shelves with lots of books, pottery, art objects, and maybe some absorbers behind the books or vases, here and there.  What you want is variety, complexity, and decent visual aesthetics (or esthetics, if you are modern), and getting rid of slap back echo, or too much echo, period, while not making the room too acoustically dead. 

 

A good subwoofer coming in around 60 Hz, as @JohnA said, would be good.  My Belle (named Michelle) is a flush mounted center channel and goes down to below 60 Hz, where there is actually a little peak.  The flush mounting may be responsible for the bass extending that far.  The Belle will be cleaner than most subs as far down as it goes, so run a test disk (or REW) and see how far yours go, in their environment (location matters a lot), and experiment with putting the crossover there.  Your room is so big that you might have room for a DIY horn sub, which should be as clean as the Belles.  Once again, search all forums.

 

You might ask @artto what he recommends.  He has a less than 8 foot ceiling, and at least at one time had some absorbers on the ceiling, sparingly used.  If you go to his page, the pot bellied things all over his walls are Bonner diffusers.  There are instructions on how to build them somewhere in Paul Klipsch's Dope form Hope (available here).

 

Don't put a coffee table in front of the listening couch (reflection).

 

If you have a Marantz or Dennon AVR (but I doubt it, since you are posting in 2 channel), you probably have Audyssey.  Audyssey or some other room correction device can be good AFTER you get the room as good as possible with acoustical treatments.

 

Please keep  us posted. 

 

 

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I love the sound of Belle's. As stated, not "lacking" bass, just lacking the deep bass. Your challenge is to figure out placement prior to finishing the area which is a nightmare. My advice is turn it down and listen to them. That will lessen the "harshness" that the room is creating. Keep them on the dollies and move them around to find a good spot. Probably not in that alcove for sure and possibly toed in a touch (especially if near a side wall). Where you have them currently is reflecting off the walls and exaggerating the mid and high end which makes the low end sound weak, and if you turn it up to get more bass, you will make it worse. Once you find a good spot, drop them off the casters and that will help the low end a bit more. The 1802 would probably overpower the Belles. I use two small 25 hz tapped horns to supplement my Belles but in a small room. Now if you are considering Khorns + Belles + 1802, well you would have quite a system there. If you are anywhere near me, I can fill your basement with sound deadening junk stuff to give you better acoustics. I will need to leave it there for a few years, but it should help the sound.

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Basement ceilings are often too low, but that is a solvable problem.  How high is your ceiling?  If lower than 8 feet, put a small amount of absorbent material (thicker is better) on the part of the ceiling that is a first reflection point as seen from the Main Listening Position.  Sit at the MLP and have someone hold a flat, light weight mirror FLAT against the ceiling.  Be careful!  If you can see the speaker in the mirror, that's the spot to put the absorber.  Repeat for each speaker, but don't rinse.  Some people would suggest doing the same for the FRPs on the side walls, also.  Others would not.
 
You do need to break up and/or absorb the reflections over most of those walls, and put carpeting or area rugs on the floor.  Use absorbers and diffusers (see acoustical catalogs, perhaps make them yourself -- search this forum and others, under DIY absorbers / diffusors), use book shelves with lots of books, pottery, art objects, and maybe some absorbers behind the books or vases, here and there.  What you want is variety, complexity, and decent visual aesthetics (or esthetics, if you are modern), and getting rid of slap back echo, or too much echo, period, while not making the room too acoustically dead. 
 
A good subwoofer coming in around 60 Hz, as [mention=43]JohnA[/mention] said, would be good.  My Belle (named Michelle) is a flush mounted center channel and goes down to below 60 Hz, where there is actually a little peak.  The flush mounting may be responsible for the bass extending that far.  The Belle will be cleaner than most subs as far down as it goes, so run a test disk (or REW) and see how far yours go, in their environment (location matters a lot), and experiment with putting the crossover there.  Your room is so big that you might have room for a DIY horn sub, which should be as clean as the Belles.  Once again, search all forums.
 
You might ask [mention=8736]artto[/mention] what he recommends.  He has a less than 8 foot ceiling, and at least at one time had some absorbers on the ceiling, sparingly used.  If you go to his page, the pot bellied things all over his walls are Bonner diffusers.  There are instructions on how to build them somewhere in Paul Klipsch's Dope form Hope (available here).
 
Don't put a coffee table in front of the listening couch (reflection).
 
If you have a Marantz or Dennon AVR (but I doubt it, since you are posting in 2 channel), you probably have Audyssey.  Audyssey or some other room correction device can be good AFTER you get the room as good as possible with acoustical treatments.
 
Please keep  us posted. 
 
 


I have Luxman integrated amp so no Audyssey. Bare basement but is 9ft high.

All very informative information. Will keep you guys posted but it’s going to take a lot of time to get where I need to be.

Im glad to get this type of response from this forum because I’m pretty new with this and most stuff that was mentioned wasn’t obvious to me.



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I love the sound of Belle's. As stated, not "lacking" bass, just lacking the deep bass. Your challenge is to figure out placement prior to finishing the area which is a nightmare. My advice is turn it down and listen to them. That will lessen the "harshness" that the room is creating. Keep them on the dollies and move them around to find a good spot. Probably not in that alcove for sure and possibly toed in a touch (especially if near a side wall). Where you have them currently is reflecting off the walls and exaggerating the mid and high end which makes the low end sound weak, and if you turn it up to get more bass, you will make it worse. Once you find a good spot, drop them off the casters and that will help the low end a bit more. The 1802 would probably overpower the Belles. I use two small 25 hz tapped horns to supplement my Belles but in a small room. Now if you are considering Khorns + Belles + 1802, well you would have quite a system there. If you are anywhere near me, I can fill your basement with sound deadening junk stuff to give you better acoustics. I will need to leave it there for a few years, but it should help the sound.


1802 and Khorns would be great...but financially I can probably only get one or the other. Since the 1802 will over power the Belle’s....Which tapped horn subs do you have?

The reason I kept the speakers on those dollies was because I was moving them around last night. I knew dollies affected the sound but didn’t realize it affected it that much. Anyway my last spot where the picture was taken was completely wrong.(thanks the the peeps here) I will need to experiment more.

I had them against that 55ft wall before The picture and acoustically that sucked too....but then again basement is empty. Still they sounded small in that huge space while against the 55ft wall...& I want awesome sound down there!

I will be looking out for wallnut khorns while I decide/move the Belle’s around to figure out where is best.

No one made any comments about Jubilee’s.....where’s the jub fans? Do you guys think the jub’s will need a sub too?

Thanks again for all the info




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1 hour ago, Sprogk said:

Since the 1802 will over power the Belle’s....Which tapped horn subs do you have?

 

While the 1802 will play very loud there is no reason that it should over power the Belle's if you blend them properly and it would be a killer system.

 

KPT-1802-HLS with KI-396-SMA-11 is a well balanced killer combination as heard here at the 2018 pilgrimage.

 

miketn

 

59678952_KPT-1802-HLSandKI-396-W-SMA-11.thumb.jpg.c141917ca3df84ef27233e652d022bf6.jpg

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2 hours ago, Sprogk said:

No one made any comments about Jubilee’s.....where’s the jub fans? Do you guys think the jub’s will need a sub too?

 

Jub Fan Here :lol: 

 

Jubs don't need a sub but they sure do play nice with a horn sub like this 1502 prototype at the 2017 pilgrimage.

 

miketn

 

 

618682969_RoyandsonMichael2017pilgrimagersz2.thumb.jpg.866c50ad1b2ead123d2f32b9ce948d21.jpg

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Hi -- I've never even seen a sump pump, but anything in the way of tightly snugging a K-horn into its corner presents challenges.  I had to trim side grill frames in two K-horns to make them go completely their into corners because of some very close baseboard molding.  It was worth it, because I think K-horns should should be fully into the full corner instead of part way or offset a bit.  I don't know if you can do it by creating a closet or small ancillary corner.  I'm also probably not the best person to deal with these questions.

 

Some propose false corners to solve this problem.  This may be the best answer for you, since your room is very large and the false corner structures won't intrude as much.

 

55' is certainly too wide without center speakers, and may be too large anyway.  I guess the best thing is to try what you can.  You may have to do trial and error anyway, because of the staircase and other big oddities.  Do you have another floor you can work with?

 

 

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10 hours ago, Sprogk said:

With the Belle’s along my 55ft wall (they were spaced about 15ft) the sweet spot is tiny. Just didn’t sound right. Even with a 1802 the sound didn’t fill the area very well. Bass was mostly absent.

 

So you have an 1802 sub ...?

 

miketn

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You know, I keep hearing over & over that the Bell's lack bass. I've never had that problem hooked up to my Marantz 2500. It positively SLAMS my house. My wife comments that it sounds like the club. One caveat. It depends on the music. If the recording is some 60's rock(apologies to die hard oldies rock fans) then for the most part the bass is not emphasized as much as it is on today's music. I should ask how much bass are you looking for? Not all bass is created equal. 

If I put on house, EDM, Dub step music it'll down right shake the house. I mean damn, it'll shake the house!  He'll, even the mid horns I can feel the vibration coming through. So I don't know what type of music people are listening too but there is no lack of bass with the Bell's. Even with "delicate" jazz recodings with double bass instruments such as on Lee Rittenour Six string theory cd (btw AWESOME CD if you are a guitar fan)some of the double bass is awesome and bass guitar with Stanley Clark is perfect. Maybe people are having their eq flat? I have mine one notch to the right which seems to feed enough bass. 

Oh and solid state only please. 

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2 hours ago, Rxonmymind said:

You know, I keep hearing over & over that the Bell's lack bass. I've never had that problem hooked up to my Marantz 2500. It positively SLAMS my house. My wife comments that it sounds like the club. One caveat. It depends on the music. If the recording is some 60's rock(apologies to die hard oldies rock fans) then for the most part the bass is not emphasized as much as it is on today's music. I should ask how much bass are you looking for? Not all bass is created equal. 

If I put on house, EDM, Dub step music it'll down right shake the house. I mean damn, it'll shake the house!  He'll, even the mid horns I can feel the vibration coming through. So I don't know what type of music people are listening too but there is no lack of bass with the Bell's. Even with "delicate" jazz recodings with double bass instruments such as on Lee Rittenour Six string theory cd (btw AWESOME CD if you are a guitar fan)some of the double bass is awesome and bass guitar with Stanley Clark is perfect. Maybe people are having their eq flat? I have mine one notch to the right which seems to feed enough bass. 

Oh and solid state only please. 

 

 

Yeah, but some people like to listen to actual music with the best electronics (which would in most cases be a tube amp)......

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Jub Fan Here :lol: 
 
Jubs don't need a sub but they sure do play nice with a horn sub like this 1502 prototype at the 2017 pilgrimage.
 
miketn
 
 
618682969_RoyandsonMichael2017pilgrimagersz2.thumb.jpg.866c50ad1b2ead123d2f32b9ce948d21.jpg


What’s happening with the 1502? Are these going into production?


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18 hours ago, Shakeydeal said:

From the picture you posted, I can't even begin to imagine how horrible that must sound. Words fail me.......

 

You need to work more on where your speakers are before you move on to other issues........

 

Shakey

 

Yeah, I can’t imagine a more terrible setup. 

 

The Belle Klipsch will never be able to “pound your chest”, that is just not that speaker’s forte. 

 

Klipschorns can, but within limits. You could also stack LaScalas. 

 

If that hole is your only option for listening, then get some treatments on the walls and floor, toe them in, and sit on the edge of that area. 

 

You can also adjust the crossover to dial that midrange back to stop the earbleed at the volume levels I have a feeling you’re listening at.  

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So you have an 1802 sub ...?
 
miketn


I wish...maybe too little sleep when I typed that


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12 hours ago, Sprogk said:

 

 


I actually like that idea Larry. Two Khorns opposite corners of the 55ft wall and Belle’s centers! I like!

But what about that sump pump in the left corner of that wall? I can off coarse build that sump into a closet or little room to creat a corner. But then Jubilees would also work if I have two corners! I always thought that 55ft corners are way to far apart for corner speakers....

would I still need a sub?



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Two Klipschorns or Jubilees in the corners, and a Belle for the center would work nicely - that’s a massive space you’re trying to fill. 

 

95% of music won’t require subs, but if you do movies - then you’ll need a couple. 

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Yeah, I can’t imagine a more terrible setup. 
 
The Belle Klipsch will never be able to “pound your chest”, that is just not that speaker’s forte. 
 
Klipschorns can, but within limits. You could also stack LaScalas. 
 
If that hole is your only option for listening, then get some treatments on the walls and floor, toe them in, and sit on the edge of that area. 
 
You can also adjust the crossover to dial that midrange back to stop the earbleed at the volume levels I have a feeling you’re listening at.  


I have options to move them. I just need to figure out where everything will go.

I do love deep bass in any music. I already priced 1802 but I want to ensure that the right direction to move. I have dialed the mid back a bit but room need work.

I need some Khorns in my basement with a 1802 or 1502 but that’s dreaming.(and lots of sound treatment)



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You know, I keep hearing over & over that the Bell's lack bass. I've never had that problem hooked up to my Marantz 2500. It positively SLAMS my house. My wife comments that it sounds like the club. One caveat. It depends on the music. If the recording is some 60's rock(apologies to die hard oldies rock fans) then for the most part the bass is not emphasized as much as it is on today's music. I should ask how much bass are you looking for? Not all bass is created equal. 
If I put on house, EDM, Dub step music it'll down right shake the house. I mean damn, it'll shake the house!  He'll, even the mid horns I can feel the vibration coming through. So I don't know what type of music people are listening too but there is no lack of bass with the Bell's. Even with "delicate" jazz recodings with double bass instruments such as on Lee Rittenour Six string theory cd (btw AWESOME CD if you are a guitar fan)some of the double bass is awesome and bass guitar with Stanley Clark is perfect. Maybe people are having their eq flat? I have mine one notch to the right which seems to feed enough bass. 
Oh and solid state only please. 


I had my Belle’s in a small room and the sound was absolutely amazing. Loved it...but new house so trying to find their new spot


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Two Klipschorns or Jubilees in the corners, and a Belle for the center would work nicely - that’s a massive space you’re trying to fill. 
 
95% of music won’t require subs, but if you do movies - then you’ll need a couple. 


Its just for music. Klipschorns & sub would be great

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11 hours ago, mikebse2a3 said:

While the 1802 will play very loud there is no reason that it should over power the Belle's if you blend them properly and it would be a killer system.

I agree.  Spend $95 on a UMIK-1 to measure the frequency response with Room EQ Wizard, and you'll be able to run the 1802 as an extension of your Belle bass bins all the time (as I do with my DIY tapped horn subs and Jubilees).  An 1802 will likely be idling along  between the Belles on the front wall (a good thing--as this keeps the distortion down as low as possible).  You probably don't need corners as much using one of these and a pair of Belles or Jubilee if crossed over properly and EQed flat.

 

I recommend REW and some sort of system EQ control, even upstream of the preamp in a computer or music player, or between the preamp and amplifier sections in an external processor loop, so that you can see and control your deep bass response, thus replacing the need for Audyssey, YPAO or any other "room correction software" in your integrated amplifier or receiver itself.  You can also use something like a Dirac box or their upstream software in a computer.

 

1 hour ago, Sprogk said:

Its just for music. Klipschorns & sub would be great

In that space--even with 9' high ceilings--you'll need a fair amount of absorption around Khorns, and almost as much around the Belles.  The Khorns, Belles, La Scalas, etc. have an interesting bit of extra acoustic energy that comes from the midrange horn in the vertical direction from ~350-1800 Hz that you need to absorb, otherwise you'll have very tinny/strident sounding loudspeakers.  More absorption is needed...a fair bit more with Klipsch Heritage loudspeakers.  Jubilees and JuBelles/JubScalas (using the K-402 horn on top) don't need this extra absorption, but it doesn't hurt to have it anyway.

 

I strongly recommend fairly substantial carpet around the Belles--out to about 6-8 feet from the midrange horn mouths. 

 

Two corner-located bass traps that are double thickness Owens-Corning 703 fiberglass panels across two room corners or along a floor-wall intersection.  The closer to the speakers that the bass traps are, the more effective they are.  Mid-bass boom and muddy sound are the symptoms of the need for bass traps, and concrete walls don't absorb anything like drywall does in most rooms. 

 

Chris

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