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Dave A

Super MWM

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If you want to try ALK 500HZ ESNs let me know.  I have an exotic set designed specifically for dual K33 MWM in 2-way or 3-way by Al..  All Auricaps.

 

There is nothing wrong with running all analog.  With a good amp and a good EQ this can be hard to beat.  It is how I am running my Jubs.

 

My all digital MCM is in the same room and I will say they each have something the other does not.  I can't clearly say one is better than the other.  There is something to be said for simplicity and all analog done right.

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On 4/23/2019 at 4:33 AM, jwc said:

Well done Dave.  How big will you go next time?

You are too funny man. I will model anything DaveA has the guts, time, and money to build! LOL.

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1 hour ago, mark1101 said:

If you want to try ALK 500HZ ESNs let me know.  I have an exotic set designed specifically for dual K33 MWM in 2-way or 3-way by Al..  All Auricaps.

 

There is nothing wrong with running all analog.  With a good amp and a good EQ this can be hard to beat.  It is how I am running my Jubs.

 

My all digital MCM is in the same room and I will say they each have something the other does not.  I can't clearly say one is better than the other.  There is something to be said for simplicity and all analog done right.

Next time I am down that way I would like to stop in if you don't mind. How much advance notice do you usually need?

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On 4/24/2019 at 11:41 PM, Dave A said:

I had a friend over who wanted me to crank the MCM 1900 up as loud as my 200 WPC would do. So I got my hearing protection out and turned it up all the way. I will not do that with this set and if I ever do use those amps wide open it will be with these bad boys outside. It is a different ball game. My friend asks me to do the turn them all the way up thing on these I will refuse.

Why?

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19 hours ago, mark1101 said:

On my MCM, I have a MAC 206 (6 channel amp) driving the 510, 402, and XII on both sides with 120 wpc each.  Then, 900 wpc on the MWMs, and 550 wpc on my 684 subs (with QSC PLX2 amps).

 

But..........I don't play it very loud.  Still I found having this kind of power brings out an extremely clear and authoritative presentation from all I have tried over the years........and I have had many different configurations.  So although the power may not be required, I find there is still a good reason in what to consider powering your Klipsch with.

This has been a fascinating topic for me for years I realize without really pursuing it.  While I don’t doubt that your long and varied experience is very real Mark, I must wonder if there is any electro/mechanical/acoustic reason WHY it might sound better to have amounts of power we Absolutely Never use?

 

ignore this please if too much of a sidetrack 

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12 hours ago, Dave A said:

Next time I am down that way I would like to stop in if you don't mind. How much advance notice do you usually need?

 

Dave,

 

PM sent.

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3 hours ago, Delicious2 said:

This has been a fascinating topic for me for years I realize without really pursuing it.  While I don’t doubt that your long and varied experience is very real Mark, I must wonder if there is any electro/mechanical/acoustic reason WHY it might sound better to have amounts of power we Absolutely Never use?

 

ignore this please if too much of a sidetrack 

 

I wish I knew the answer to this.  I suspect it is because a modern $5K McIntosh amp sounds better than what I was using previously.  Routinely I see 4-6 watts on the meters.  On my Jub system which uses 1 MC-402, when a loud 40Hz. bass note shows up I'm pretty sure that amp can instantaneously provide whatever might be required much better than a 5 watt amp.

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In my experience, amplifier slew rate differences are audible.  I'd look there.  Raw wattage out doesn't seem to be as good an indicator of the audible differences, IME.  Perhaps this is why the better class D amplifiers sound so good also since their bandwidth is typically filtered on the output stage to filter out the switching frequencies and their harmonics--typically in the 100 kHz range and above.

 

Chris

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4 hours ago, Delicious2 said:

This has been a fascinating topic for me for years I realize without really pursuing it.  While I don’t doubt that your long and varied experience is very real Mark, I must wonder if there is any electro/mechanical/acoustic reason WHY it might sound better to have amounts of power we Absolutely Never use?

 

ignore this please if too much of a sidetrack 

As a guy who has gone low power class A, mid and high power class D, I ask the same questions.

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4 minutes ago, Chris A said:

In my experience, amplifier slew rate differences are audible.  I'd look there.  Raw wattage out doesn't seem to be as good an indicator of the audible differences, IME.  Perhaps this is why the better class D amplifiers sound so good also since their bandwidth is typically filtered on the output stage to filter out the switching frequencies and their harmonics--typically in the 100 kHz range and above.

 

Chris

Yep, this seems to be the trend now.

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Did you guys know McIntosh now has class D?

 

Sorry........I'm polluting.  But a good discussion for powering MWM systems and related.

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5 hours ago, Chris A said:

In my experience, amplifier slew rate differences are audible.  I'd look there.  Raw wattage out doesn't seem to be as good an indicator of the audible differences, IME.  Perhaps this is why the better class D amplifiers sound so good also since their bandwidth is typically filtered on the output stage to filter out the switching frequencies and their harmonics--typically in the 100 kHz range and above.

 

Chris

Interesting white paper from the makers of one of the better Class D amp modules:  https://www.hypex.nl/img/upload/doc/an_wp/AN_UcD_and_IMD_DIM_slewrate.pdf  

 

My take-away for non class D amps:

 

"An amplifier with moderate slew rate that remains perfectly linear until it actually slew limits is a much better amplifier than one with a huge slew rate that starts distorting much earlier"

 

And for class D

 

"Slew rate in class D amplifiers is completely unrelated to that found in linear amplifiers. The input stage is a comparator with the 400kHz carrier at its input. The "slew rate" is limited by the output filter. Apply a voltage step from -Vcc to +Vcc to the output filter and look at the output. The bandwidth limiting action of the filter necessarily limits the dV/dt found there. That doesn't mean that the filter or anything else has gone non-linear. It's just that the bandwidth is limited, nothing more, nothing less. Slew rate in a class D amplifier is a completely linear effect. Here, power bandwidth equals small signal bandwidth by definition, because there is no non-linear effect involved."

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Can I just jump in here and ask a dumb question:

 

If one had a set of crossovers designed for MWM bass and K402 on top, would they require modification for use with this Super version?

 

Thanks. 

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5 hours ago, Ziggurat said:

...If one had a set of crossovers designed for MWM bass and K402 on top, would they require modification for use with this Super version?

 

Almost certainly.  The roll off of the upper end of the "super MWM" will start at a lower frequency and will also be subject to the exact size/shape of the motorboard baffle slot dimensions.

 

Without some means to measure the output of the MWM bass bins and K-402 with whatever driver that you plan on using, you'll only be guessing.  I recommend a UMIK-1 and Room EQ Wizard (REW) freeware for your particular operating system (create a login for yourself at that forum in order to download REW):  https://www.avnirvana.com/resources/categories/rew-room-eq-wizard-beta-downloads.1/

 

Chris

 

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12 hours ago, Ziggurat said:

Can I just jump in here and ask a dumb question:

 

If one had a set of crossovers designed for MWM bass and K402 on top, would they require modification for use with this Super version?

 

Thanks. 

I agree with the response by ChrisA, but if you had MWM crossovers, they would be much better starting point than what DaveA just "threw in there," which were designed for bass reflex bass of 6-8 db less sensitivity and have to much mid/treble attenuation (hence, his description of the bass dominating).

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I had asked dtel what he used on his outdoor rig, consisting of an mwm-s with the equiv. of an LSI split top. Roy told him that an AA would work. Of course, not optimized, but would serve the intended purpose.

 

Yet, that's like the time I told someone I could sail a boat (I'm definitely a non-sailor)... but maybe not quite efficiently or correctly.

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On 4/26/2019 at 5:42 AM, Delicious2 said:

Why?

I don't want to be responsible for ear damage. I don't know how loud for how long things need to be before you get hurt and this guy just sits there and grins. Maybe his ears are shot out from Iraq, I don't know but I don't want to add to it. I know volumes way below that effect my hearing for hours so enough is enough.

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On 4/27/2019 at 6:19 AM, Chris A said:

 

Almost certainly.  The roll off of the upper end of the "super MWM" will start at a lower frequency and will also be subject to the exact size/shape of the motorboard baffle slot dimensions.

 

Without some means to measure the output of the MWM bass bins and K-402 with whatever driver that you plan on using, you'll only be guessing.  I recommend a UMIK-1 and Room EQ Wizard (REW) freeware for your particular operating system (create a login for yourself at that forum in order to download REW):  https://www.avnirvana.com/resources/categories/rew-room-eq-wizard-beta-downloads.1/

 

Chris

 

Hi Chris,

  I assume the cutout is the same as the factory MWM. This is based on measurements from an actual motorboard taken out of a John Allen single bin which as far as I know is a direct knock off. The attached CAD file earlier in this thread has the build information.

On 4/27/2019 at 3:21 PM, Marvel said:

I had asked dtel what he used on his outdoor rig, consisting of an mwm-s with the equiv. of an LSI split top. Roy told him that an AA would work. Of course, not optimized, but would serve the intended purpose.

 

Yet, that's like the time I told someone I could sail a boat (I'm definitely a non-sailor)... but maybe not quite efficiently or correctly.

Interesting to know and I kind of figured it was not optimal but being the impatient type it would at least get me going. This next week is fine tune time after I rearrange the shop to fit these in better. I have to move my lathe out of the way of new important things.

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On 4/26/2019 at 4:50 PM, Delicious2 said:

because there is no non-linear effect involved."

Bruno is DA MAN! His 400 Watt kits soud as good as a $10,000 Audio Research Class D (no longer made because they can mark up tube amps much more).

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1 hour ago, Dave A said:

John Allen single bin which as far as I know is a direct knock off. The attached CAD file earlier in this thread has the build information.

Gary Gillum built all the John Allen MWM's, with PWK's blessing. Since he's the co-patent holder, along with Paul Klipsch, one could hardly call them "knockoffs."

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