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Dave A

Super MWM

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For JWC

 

K43 Black vs. Crites 1526C gray. The lower one is the Acoustic Elegance TD15M-4 (black curve) vs. the Kappa 15 C. The AE is the very best, goes lower and higher by almost 8 db a 1Kz., but costs about $900 a pair.

SuperMWMK43vsCrites1526C.jpg

 

SMWM_AEtd15M-4_vsKappa15C.jpg

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2 hours ago, jwc said:

Did u do one with the bc 15ps100?

I don't recall. I may have and gotten similar results, so I didn't save. I'll try again if you want.

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 Claude what do you think would be a better woofer in this application?

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I think the curve looks pretty good.  The dips/cancellation after 100Hz aren't as bad as I predicted.  Also for an LF (not sub) horn, you have great "matching spl" from 100hz down to about 35Hz without that typical rolloff.  Your long horn and big floor space paid off in that regard.

 

Dave,  I can't remember,  did you put a reflector at the turn in the back?  It would be nice to see the FR extend to the higher frequencies. 

 

jc

 

 

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It has been a long time since I put data in Hornresp.....I gave up on it years ago.  Claude does it all the time and his turn around on curve predictions are pretty quick.

 

However, to show you a drastic difference in woofer loading difference in your application and mass roll off and such......  Claude could load these 2 woofers in Hornresp and show 2 different woofers that one is for low end advantage and the other with higher extension.  I'm not trying to create work here but your or Claude.  The FR result has rekindled my interest in this thread.  This was a cool build and result.

 

https://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Kappalite_3015

https://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=LAB_15

 

 

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I'm certainly no expert on this stuff....  but I would (like) to think that since (on the Jubilee) the K69 is crossed at 380 that for residential type use, as a function of frequency, you should be safe doing the "midrange" driver at a similar level, no?

 

(I'm not making any comments on the other factors, simply frequency)

 

 

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1 hour ago, jwc said:

I think the curve looks pretty good.  The dips/cancellation after 100Hz aren't as bad as I predicted.  Also for an LF (not sub) horn, you have great "matching spl" from 100hz down to about 35Hz without that typical rolloff.  Your long horn and big floor space paid off in that regard.

 

Dave,  I can't remember,  did you put a reflector at the turn in the back?  It would be nice to see the FR extend to the higher frequencies. 

 

jc

 

 

There is a splitter in the center back but no reflectors in the back outside corners.

DSC_0002.JPG

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51 minutes ago, Coytee said:

I'm certainly no expert on this stuff....  but I would (like) to think that since (on the Jubilee) the K69 is crossed at 380 that for residential type use, as a function of frequency, you should be safe doing the "midrange" driver at a similar level, no?

 

(I'm not making any comments on the other factors, simply frequency)

 

 

Coytee did Klipsch ever offer the Jubilee as a two way with the 1132 driver?  For some reason I have though they did though I can't find any supporting documents for that thought. 380hz for the 1133 driver? You thinking the 1132 will do the same?

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2 minutes ago, Dave A said:

Coytee did Klipsch ever offer the Jubilee as a two way with the 1132 driver?  For some reason I have though they did though I can't find any supporting documents for that thought. 380hz for the 1133 driver? You thinking the 1132 will do the same?

No, they didn't, it was always a 3 way with the K1133 or with the K69 for home use in a 2-way in a K-402.

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Isn't the 1132 a modified 1133?

 

I thought Roy did his magic on a redesigned phase plug or something?

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2 hours ago, jwc said:

It has been a long time since I put data in Hornresp.....I gave up on it years ago.  Claude does it all the time and his turn around on curve predictions are pretty quick.

 

However, to show you a drastic difference in woofer loading difference in your application and mass roll off and such......  Claude could load these 2 woofers in Hornresp and show 2 different woofers that one is for low end advantage and the other with higher extension.  I'm not trying to create work here but your or Claude.  The FR result has rekindled my interest in this thread.  This was a cool build and result.

 

https://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=Kappalite_3015

https://www.eminence.com/speakers/speaker-detail/?model=LAB_15

 

 

Tried the Lab 15 a while ago with dismal results. Tried the 3015 and it's not much better than the 15C at twice the price. I think Dave just need better PEQ from his Xilica with his existing drivers after trying a 15C vs a K43 to HEAR what sounds better rather than looking at curves.

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1 hour ago, Coytee said:

Isn't the 1132 a modified 1133?

 

I thought Roy did his magic on a redesigned phase plug or something?

As far as I know that is correct. He also has had more than one variation of phase plug for the 1132 and the latest is a clear improvement over older ones.

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12 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

The AE is the very best, goes lower and higher by almost 8 db a 1Kz., but costs about $900 a pair.

The reason for this drivers superior curves is a Lower Mass cone coupled with extremely low inductance of only 0.2 milli henries in the voice coil, to give it superior high frequency performance over many 15" woofers.  But for $900, I'd put the money into a BMS driver that can cross at 300 Hz.!!

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2 hours ago, Dave A said:

There is a splitter in the center back but no reflectors in the back outside corners.

DSC_0002.JPG

 

Claude, any performance benefit to using quarter round as opposed to squared blocking?  Or maybe the inverse shape of quarter round (I forget, is that called cove molding or something?)?

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Thanks for the image.  So that isn't a full reflector.

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Dave, I also agree with JWC - those curves don't look too bad. At crossover, the curves should be down about 6 dB. You are almost there. Also the K-402 is a CD horn, so of course  you will need some boost at the higher octaves (or equivalently some attenuation at the lower frequencies). The curves show plenty of room to do that. 

 

Personally, I would first get the "CD compensation" right (combination of some PEQs and shelving). Then knock down some of the peaks in the bass bin. At that point get the composite curve to measure well. You should not need to do any tweaking by ear until that is first accomplished. I would certainly not yet substitute a different woofer driver (what you are using looks fairly good). 

 

As a note, are you comfortable about you mic and speaker placement and windowing on the measures you have been making? Has it been consistent and relatively free of room effects (within reason). 

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2 hours ago, jwc said:

Thanks for the image.  So that isn't a full reflector.

For what it is worth the decision for a splitter was based on the idea something is better than nothing. Borrowed from the La Scala design as the stock MWM bins have nothing back there. So what would be a full reflector?

 

1 hour ago, PrestonTom said:

As a note, are you comfortable about you mic and speaker placement and windowing on the measures you have been making? Has it been consistent and relatively free of room effects (within reason). 

Reasonably so but remember my help has been remote so those with experience have not been here to see. Yes to consistent which is a good sign.

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7 hours ago, ClaudeJ1 said:

Tried the Lab 15 a while ago with dismal results. Tried the 3015 and it's not much better than the 15C at twice the price. I think Dave just need better PEQ from his Xilica with his existing drivers after trying a 15C vs a K43 to HEAR what sounds better rather than looking at curves.

 

Neither fitted for the application.  It was a test to show one with a low extension and the other with a higher mass roll off.   If that doesn't show up as an advantage on the Curve....then its the horn.

 

Not needed.  For discussion only.

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Dave.  Just a reminder....I like your curve.  Just adding points for thought.

 

Full reflector would look "something like" this: 

 

Not saying do it......just a point

 

 

 

 

Smwm-hack-01.jpg

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