La Scala II's

[dubai2000]

In my opinion there is only one way of finding out - give it a try as each room and each set of ears (and taste) are different.

[Deano1974]

Yes probally will try but most of the LSII owners on here have already done most of the hard work

[emoji4]

In my opinion there is only one way of finding out - give it a try as each room and each set of ears (and taste) are different.

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[Deano1974]

Sorry for the double posting.

No problem we have all done it before lol

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[dtel]

If it were me I would try them back a little but toed in ? They could always be put back where they are now. 

Back corner of each speaker almost touching the side wall, front angled in to point where they cross where you want, almost touching the back wall also. I say this to get the most width of the room and your wall treatment would help with any sound reflecting off the front wall in front of the speaker.  ? it's free to try, but only you can hear where you like them. I say this because if I were there I would be out site seeing the countryside.   

[Deano1974]

If it were me I would try them back a little but toed in ? They could always be put back where they are now. 
Back corner of each speaker almost touching the side wall, front angled in to point where they cross where you want, almost touching the back wall also. I say this to get the most width of the room and your wall treatment would help with any sound reflecting off the front wall in front of the speaker.  ? it's free to try, but only you can hear where you like them. I say this because if I were there I would be out site seeing the countryside. [emoji3]  

Thanks Dtel, will give it a go, and yes the countryside is beautiful but its the middle of winter and 4° so try not to stay outside for too long unless we want to go skiing down south [emoji16]

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[dtel]

Had no idea, that's way to cold for me, we average a couple cold nights each winter in the high teens at the most, 90's in the summer. And winter is only a few months and you would probably not even consider that winter.

I gave up skiing to dangerous,  not that the sport is that dangerous but at my skill level it's dangerous. Being brave on skis with little talent is not a good combination. 

[Deano1974]

Had no idea, that's way to cold for me, we average a couple cold nights each winter in the high teens at the most, 90's in the summer. And winter is only a few months and you would probably not even consider that winter.
I gave up skiing to dangerous,  not that the sport is that dangerous but at my skill level it's dangerous. Being brave on skis with little talent is not a good combination. 

Lol yeah maybe you should stick to fishing much safer, damn I wish we had winter that only dropped to 90° [emoji4]



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[Emile]

On 7/3/2018 at 1:57 AM, Deano1974 said:

One speaker complete and oh boy I did not expect this stunning colour finish its gorgeous!

 

Congratulations! Absolutely stunning!  

Cheers, Emile

[Deano1974]

2 minutes ago, Emile said:

 

Congratulations! Absolutely stunning!  

Cheers, Emile

Thank you Emile, just need to get the placement right 😉

 

Wheres Schu when you need him lol

[Emile]

2 minutes ago, Deano1974 said:

just need to get the placement right

Just open a bottle of wine ... they will sound awesome even in the "wrong" place  

 

OOPS ... forgot it's probably about 6:00 AM in New Zealand  

[WillyBob]

should that make a difference?

when mine get home, the neigbours WILL know. It doesn't matter the time of day.

[garyrc]

Corner placement will work for the bass, but there are three cautions that go with corner placement, as we discussed before, concerning imaging, "air" and depth:

1. Reflections from the two near side walls must be prevented by putting absorbing material on the walls from where a yardstick placed flat against the La Scala's midrange horn mouth will touch the side wall, then extending the absorber to 2 or 3 feet into the room.   Just extending the wall treatment you have now back nearer the corner but no farther back than the aforementioned yardstick (after the La Scalas are moved into the corners, of course).  How thick are those curtains?
2. There should be a carpet on the floor directly in front of the La Scalas.
3. Toe them in toward your ears.  If there is more than one listener, aim in a compromising way.

By the way, since we have been talking about language  ... 😁... for years (at least in the US) the word was "damping," with no "en," meaning to minimize reflections, vibration, or running wild.  Thus amplifiers had a damping factor, and rooms that were too acoustically dead were "over-damped."  Then someone on Star Trek mentioned "dampening" vibrations, and that was it.  The Halcyon Days were over.  People have been at loggerheads over "damping" v.s. "dampening" ever since.   It's almost as bad as whether it is a good idea to put a speaker in a corner.

[Schu]

As mentioned, corner and wall loading increases low frequencies db  but affects/constrains mid/upper air and spatial qualities. It's not "against a wall" or "in a corner", there are shades of gray as in "near a wall" or "near a corner" (which is why I will probably never own Klipschorns unless they sealed backs).

 

My personal preferences for the LSii are for slightly away from walls/corners and crossed behind my main LP where the rear wall is at least 3'-4' behind main LP.

 

I don't like "on axis" listening with aggressive/focused horn lenses.

[Marvel]

7 hours ago, Deano1974 said:

Thanks Dtel, will give it a go, and yes the countryside is beautiful but its the middle of winter and 4° so try not to stay outside for too long unless we want to go skiing down south

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Is that centigrade? That would be about 39 fahrenheit...

[Deano1974]

 
Is that centigrade? That would be about 39 fahrenheit...

Correct that is in Celsius

[emoji4]

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[Deano1974]

Corner placement will work for the bass, but there are three cautions that go with corner placement, as we discussed before, concerning imaging, "air" and depth:

1. Reflections from the two near side walls must be prevented by putting absorbing material on the walls from where a yardstick placed flat against the La Scala's midrange horn mouth will touch the side wall, then extending the absorber to 2 or 3 feet into the room.   Just extending the wall treatment you have now back nearer the corner but no farther back than the aforementioned yardstick (after the La Scalas are moved into the corners, of course).  How thick are those curtains?
2. There should be a carpet on the floor directly in front of the La Scalas.
3. Toe them in toward your ears.  If there is more than one listener, aim in a compromising way.

By the way, since we have been talking about language  ... [emoji16]... for years (at least in the US) the word was "damping," with no "en," meaning to minimize reflections, vibration, or running wild.  Thus amplifiers had a damping factor, and rooms that were too acoustically dead were "over-damped."  Then someone on Star Trek mentioned "dampening" vibrations, and that was it.  The Halcyon Days were over.  People have been at loggerheads over "damping" v.s. "dampening" ever since.   It's almost as bad as whether it is a good idea to put a speaker in a corner.

Curtains are reasonably thick and I did try the corners before but not on an axis where PWK advises with the cross of the axis extending infront of me at sitting postion

With that position the voices sounded very bassy and thick

Mind you I didnt have the carpet in front of the LSIIs

So that could have been the isssue

Does PWKs idea cancel out the bass nodes?



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[Deano1974]

As mentioned, corner and wall loading increases low frequencies db  but affects/constrains mid/upper air and spatial qualities. It's not "against a wall" or "in a corner", there are shades of gray as in "near a wall" or "near a corner" (which is why I will probably never own Klipschorns unless they sealed backs).
 
My personal preferences for the LSii are for slightly away from walls/corners and crossed behind my main LP where the rear wall is at least 3'-4' behind main LP.
 
I don't like "on axis" listening with aggressive/focused horn lenses.

Thanks Schu, when you say slighty out whats that in cm/ft please, roughly and idea?

Cheers

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[garyrc]

3 hours ago, Deano1974 said:

Curtains are reasonably thick and I did try the corners before but not on an axis where PWK advises with the cross of the axis extending infront of me at sitting postion

With that position the voices sounded very bassy and thick

Mind you I didnt have the carpet in front of the LSIIs

So that could have been the isssue

Does PWKs idea cancel out the bass nodes?



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One of the characteristics of good horn loaded speakers is that they reveal differences between recordings.  Some voices are thin and crisp, others "round" and crisp, and others bassy and thick.  I imagine you are trying many voices on many recordings, right? 

 

As to placement, as Schu said, there are shades of grey.  Try moving the speakers around little by little ... 

 

I don't think bass nodes are cancelled by corner placement; part of the corner controversy is around whether corners help or harm in smoothing out the response.  Good looking graphs, and -- whatever they are called -- energy maps or energy photos have been published that seem to support both sides.  This has been going on for about 35 or 40 years.  It may be safe to say it depends on the speaker design, the room, and the seating position.  Or not.  Modes, nodes and nulls, oh my!  Loudspeaker position and how they are aimed, seating position of the listener, room proportions, room treatments, inc bass traps, etc all may count in any given instance..

 

One of the recurring problems is that people quote the same statements over and over again until they become factoids in the original Norman Mailer sense, before CNN destroyed the meaning.   So, I will now do the very same thing; I'll quote an expert.  The following is a quote from an article called "The LEDE Concept" in Audio Magazine, August 1987, by Don Davis.*  "Paul Klipsch's advocacy of corner placement for the past 50 years is still correct.  Corner placement has the following advantages: the entire audience coverage angle is within 90 degrees, polar control is excellent at specular frequencies, and the best low-frequency modal response in acoustically small rooms is obtained."   [Bolding mine]

 

* "Don Davis and his wife, Carolyn, founded Synergetic Audio Concepts in 1972. Don and Carolyn are both Fellows of the Audio Engineering Society.  Don is a senior member of the IEEE and a gold member of the Acoustical Society of America. Don and Carolyn received dual lifetime achievement awards from NSCA, the Adele De Berri Pioneers of Audio award from InfoComm International, and the USITT Harold Burris-Myer Distinguished Career in Sound Design Award.　 Both Don and Carolyn were recipients of Indiana's highest citizen award from the Governor when they were made Sagamore of the Wabash (!) for their contributions to education."  From Google Books.

 

 

[Deano1974]

Wow thanks Gary, the information you provide is outstanding thank you

I will have a play over the weekend and report on how it goes

Thanks again

 
One of the characteristics of good horn loaded speakers is that they reveal differences between recordings.  Some voices are thin and crisp, others "round" and crisp, and others bassy and thick.  I imagine you are trying many voices on many recordings, right? 
 
As to placement, as Schu said, there are shades of grey.  Try moving the speakers around little by little ... 
 
I don't think bass nodes are cancelled by corner placement; part of the corner controversy is around whether corners help or harm in smoothing out the response.  Good looking graphs, and -- whatever they are called -- energy maps or energy photos have been published that seem to support both sides.  This has been going on for about 35 or 40 years.  It may be safe to say it depends on the speaker design, the room, and the seating position.  Or not.  Modes, nodes and nulls, oh my!  Loudspeaker position and how they are aimed, seating position of the listener, room proportions, room treatments, inc bass traps, etc all may count in any given instance..
 
One of the recurring problems is that people quote the same statements over and over again until they become factoids in the original Norman Mailer sense, before CNN destroyed the meaning.   So, I will now do the very same thing; I'll quote an expert.  The following is a quote from an article called "The LEDE Concept" in Audio Magazine, August 1987, by Don Davis.*  "Paul Klipsch's advocacy of corner placement for the past 50 years is still correct.  Corner placement has the following advantages: the entire audience coverage angle is within 90 degrees, polar control is excellent at specular frequencies, and the best low-frequency modal response in acoustically small rooms is obtained."   [bolding mine]
 
* "Don Davis and his wife, Carolyn, founded Synergetic Audio Concepts in 1972. Don and Carolyn are both Fellows of the Audio Engineering Society.  Don is a senior member of the IEEE and a gold member of the Acoustical Society of America. Don and Carolyn received dual lifetime achievement awards from NSCA, the Adele De Berri Pioneers of Audio award from InfoComm International, and the USITT Harold Burris-Myer Distinguished Career in Sound Design Award.　 Both Don and Carolyn were recipients of Indiana's highest citizen award from the Governor when they were made Sagamore of the Wabash (!) for their contributions to education."  From Google Books.
 
 

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[Schu]

7 hours ago, Deano1974 said:

Thanks Schu, when you say slighty out whats that in cm/ft please, roughly and idea?

Cheers


 

 

First things first, listen for a while (month or two) before making any rash judgements... try listening to a few basic positions with time investment in those placements before moving to the next.

 

With my preferences for slightly away from a wall is like the different between the sound you get when you cup your hand around your ear... I prefer to have an airy spatial open quality than I do for laser focus. 

 

My speakers are between 5" and 10" from the front wall (because of the toe)... but my room is considerably larger than your is.