Really impressed with the Heresy III

[Guest wdecho]

Guys I think there may be some confusion between the difference between a potentiometer and a L-pad. They may look alike but they are not he same. A potentiometer is nothing more than a variable resistor but a L-pad has variable resistance in series with the driver and also resistance in parallel with the driver to maintain the correct resistance the crossover should see. Crossovers are designed without any consideration of attenuation of a driver and a L-pad is only installed if a driver is too "hot" and needs some a attenuation. PWK used an autotransformer but modern speaker manufactures use resistance almost exclusively including Klipsch. Attenuation has no bearing on designing a crossover. L-pad attenuation can be added to any crossover of any speaker without effecting the function of the crossover. For most on this forum who have no interest in electronics or their circuits, this may help to more simply explain the function of a L-pad. 

[mikebse2a3]

3 hours ago, wdecho said:

For an example, if you have a driver with an impedance of 8 ohms and you determine you need 2.34 ohms of resistance to attenuate the driver 3db, you cannot just install a resistor of 2.4 ohms in series with the driver by itself because then you will be changing the driver to 10.34 ohms when the crossover is designed for an 8 ohm driver. You then need to use ohms law to get the resistance of a parallel resistor across the driver to make the driver still be 8 ohms. For this particular example the resistance needed would be 35.35 ohms. The crossover will still see a resistance of the driver as 8 ohms which is actually a nominal resistance because in the real world the resistance of the driver changes with the frequencies but it is the world we have to live in these boundaries. 

 

This being the laws of physics how would a l-pad compromise the performance of the system? 

Exactly and most importantly is the need to understand  the driver has a frequency variable complex impedance and if the original crossover design and parts values chosen was done with the frequency variable complex impedance of the driver and you have now installed an L-pad presenting a constant 8 ohm load to the crossover you have possibly compromised the optimized performance that Klipsch provided.

 

Again I want to say I have no idea how the crossover is designed in the Heresy lll but if it was designed with a fixed type L-pad attenuator on it's midrange or tweeter then altering the resistor values might be a reasonable option for tweaking to taste. My concern is recommending adding an L-pad attenuator to a network that was designed to take into account the complex impedance load of the driver which you have now altered by the L-pad's impedance.

 

I believe I'm going to let this rest now but wdecho please know that I fully understand what an L-pad is and the compromises one has to accept when using one.

 

miketn

 

 

[Guest wdecho]

48 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

Exactly and most importantly is the need to understand  the driver has a frequency variable complex impedance and if the original crossover design and parts values chosen was done with the frequency variable complex impedance of the driver and you have now installed an L-pad presenting a constant 8 ohm load to the crossover you have possibly compromised the optimized performance that Klipsch provided.

 

Again I want to say I have no idea how the crossover is designed in the Heresy lll but if it was designed with a fixed type L-pad attenuator on it's midrange or tweeter then altering the resistor values might be a reasonable option for tweaking to taste. My concern is recommending adding an L-pad attenuator to a network that was designed to take into account the complex impedance load of the driver which you have now altered by the L-pad's impedance.

 

I believe I'm going to let this rest now but wdecho please know that I fully understand what an L-pad is and the compromises one has to accept when using one.

 

miketn

 

 

You are wrong and do not understand what is happening in the relationship of attenuation and a crossover. You start with a crossover and driver that is rated for a nominal resistance, for convenience say 8 ohms. One can use a meter and measure what the resistance of the driver is if you want to split hairs and design and L-pad to retain that value. In reality it varies with frequency and when attenuating the driver and adding another resistor in parallel with the driver you still retain everything the driver and crossover did before the L- pad was added. You are not changing anything when an L-pad is added that is not already happening before the L-pad is added to the circuit. Think about this. The driver will still have what you are calling "the complex impedance or the driver." That is not going to change by adding an L-pad. Absolutely everything in the circuit with driver is retained and nothing has change except attenuation in a properly designed L-pad.

 

Sorry Mike, I do not mean to be argumentative but the record does need to be set straight about what attenuation is and how it does not change anything in the design of the crossover. Members need to have sound advice about this matter. There are many talented electronic guys, more talented than myself, on this forum that understand what I am saying is correct. Please give it some thought. It is not about who is right or wrong. 

 

For correction, the values I gave are correct when the parallel resistor is added before the series attenuation resistor but in practice it is done after the series attenuating resistor changing the value of the parallel resistor. The value of the parallel resistor when added after the series dropping resistor for a nominal rated 8 ohm driver for 3 db attenuation would be 19.39 ohms. When 19.39 ohms is attached in parallel with the 8 ohm driver the resistance will be 5.66 ohms, ohms law for resistors in parallel. Add that value to the 2.34 ohms it will take for 3 db reduction on an 8 ohm driver and you will come up with 8 ohms, what the drivers nominal impedance was in the beginning changing nothing in the crossover.  I will repeat , not rocket science guys, just first week in electronic school. Attached is a diagram of a typical L-pad attenuation for an 8 ohm drive for 3 db attenuation, the amount considered needed for one to hear a difference. I will repeat that when an engineer designs a crossover network the attenuation, if needed, never enters his mind being that it will change nothing. Attenuation is added, using resistors for most X-overs, after the design of the crossover is perfected.  

 

LPad (Driver Attenuation Circuit)

Z = 8 Ohms

A = 3 db
 

Parts List Resistors R1 = 2.34 Ohms   3.21 Watts R2 = 19.39 Ohms   2.27 Watts

 

[Guest wdecho]

I think a simpler way to explain a L-pad is this. All one is doing is adding resistance to a driver to make it less efficient but to retain the correct resistance the crossover will see for what it was designed for and  to not effect the engineered crossover frequencies designed in the crossover and to do this you must have a resistor parallel to the driver to maintain the correct resistance the crossover was designed for after the resistance is added in series with the driver. This in simple terms explains the function of a L-pad. A discrete designed L-pad will better retain the correct resistance of the driver published by the maker of the driver or one can measure the driver with an ohmmeter and design the L-pad for that measured resistance but for most consumers a rotary variable L-pad is good enough. I am sure it is not perfect but the slight deviations of the frequencies designed in the crossover is not going to be effected enough to make a difference. Not something to loose any sleep over, at least not for me. Drivers for convenience are measured at 4 ohms, 8 ohms and 16 ohms. I can assure you if you measure driver with an ohmmeter you will not find the value published by the maker of the driver being that in practical applications the stated resistance of the driver is good enough reference point for someone designing a crossover for their driver. I recently designed a crossover for a project of mine using my LaScala bass bin for the bass and an Altec 511b horn with a new driver I recently bought along with a tweeter and went the easy route of just using adjustable L-pads for both the mid and high driver. So much easier than building and testing discrete L-pad and close enough for Government work. I have went the discrete method many times in the past and it is a long and tedious procedure to get the correction one would be pleased with. With a rotary L-pad you can achieve the amount of attenuation in a matter of a few minutes by simple turning a knob. You can be assured you are not changing anything appreciable in the installed crossover for your speaker.  

[Shakeydeal]

 

 

[rjp]

9 hours ago, wdecho said:

You are wrong and do not understand what is happening in the relationship of attenuation and a crossover. You start with a crossover and driver that is rated for a nominal resistance, for convenience say 8 ohms. One can use a meter and measure what the resistance of the driver is if you want to split hairs and design and L-pad to retain that value. In reality it varies with frequency and when attenuating the driver and adding another resistor in parallel with the driver you still retain everything the driver and crossover did before the L- pad was added. You are not changing anything when an L-pad is added that is not already happening before the L-pad is added to the circuit. Think about this. The driver will still have what you are calling "the complex impedance or the driver." That is not going to change by adding an L-pad. Absolutely everything in the circuit with driver is retained and nothing has change except attenuation in a properly designed L-pad.

 

Sorry Mike, I do not mean to be argumentative but the record does need to be set straight about what attenuation is and how it does not change anything in the design of the crossover. Members need to have sound advice about this matter. There are many talented electronic guys, more talented than myself, on this forum that understand what I am saying is correct. Please give it some thought. It is not about who is right or wrong. 

 

For correction, the values I gave are correct when the parallel resistor is added before the series attenuation resistor but in practice it is done after the series attenuating resistor changing the value of the parallel resistor. The value of the parallel resistor when added after the series dropping resistor for a nominal rated 8 ohm driver for 3 db attenuation would be 19.39 ohms. When 19.39 ohms is attached in parallel with the 8 ohm driver the resistance will be 5.66 ohms, ohms law for resistors in parallel. Add that value to the 2.34 ohms it will take for 3 db reduction on an 8 ohm driver and you will come up with 8 ohms, what the drivers nominal impedance was in the beginning changing nothing in the crossover.  I will repeat , not rocket science guys, just first week in electronic school. Attached is a diagram of a typical L-pad attenuation for an 8 ohm drive for 3 db attenuation, the amount considered needed for one to hear a difference. I will repeat that when an engineer designs a crossover network the attenuation, if needed, never enters his mind being that it will change nothing. Attenuation is added, using resistors for most X-overs, after the design of the crossover is perfected.  

 

LPad (Driver Attenuation Circuit)

Z = 8 Ohms

A = 3 db
 

Parts List Resistors R1 = 2.34 Ohms   3.21 Watts R2 = 19.39 Ohms   2.27 Watts

 

 

You have the resistance part right but are missing the point we are trying to make about the frequency dependency of the speaker. 

 

The diagram you posted above may help illustrate this as follows. 

 

Let's call the impedance of the speaker be Z3.

 

Now the input resistance to this network that the crossover sees (on the left side) is

 

Zin = R1 + (R2 * Z3)/(R2 + Z3)

 

Now using the values indicated in the diagram for R1 and R2 we get

 

Zin = 2.34 + 19.39*Z3/(19.39 + Z3)

 

Now if we let Z3 be exactly 8 ohms, solving for Zin gives

 

Z3 = 8

>> Zin = 2.34 + 19.39*Z3/(19.39 + Z3)

Zin = 8.0034

 

Which is almost exactly 8 ohms. Which is the goal of this properly designed L-pad,. (This is your point I believe)

 

But this speaker is not always 8 ohms. Its actual impedance changes with frequency. 

 

Let's suppose that at a certain frequency the speaker's impedance is 16 ohms, then re-evaluate the same equation setting Z3 to 16.

 

Z3 =16

>> Zin = 2.34 + 19.39*Z3/(19.39 + Z3)

Zin = 11.1063

 

Now we see that the load the crossover sees is approximately 11 ohms, but if the speaker was connected to the crossover without this L-pad it would be 16 ohms.

 

Hence the introduction of the L-pad changes the load presented by the speaker on the crossover.

 

Hopefully this helps clear things up.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest wdecho]

11 hours ago, rjp said:

 

You have the resistance part right but are missing the point we are trying to make about the frequency dependency of the speaker. 

 

The diagram you posted above may help illustrate this as follows. 

 

Let's call the impedance of the speaker be Z3.

 

Now the input resistance to this network that the crossover sees (on the left side) is

 

Zin = R1 + (R2 * Z3)/(R2 + Z3)

 

Now using the values indicated in the diagram for R1 and R2 we get

 

Zin = 2.34 + 19.39*Z3/(19.39 + Z3)

 

Now if we let Z3 be exactly 8 ohms, solving for Zin gives

 

Z3 = 8

>> Zin = 2.34 + 19.39*Z3/(19.39 + Z3)

Zin = 8.0034

 

Which is almost exactly 8 ohms. Which is the goal of this properly designed L-pad,. (This is your point I believe)

 

But this speaker is not always 8 ohms. Its actual impedance changes with frequency. 

 

Let's suppose that at a certain frequency the speaker's impedance is 16 ohms, then re-evaluate the same equation setting Z3 to 16.

 

Z3 =16

>> Zin = 2.34 + 19.39*Z3/(19.39 + Z3)

Zin = 11.1063

 

Now we see that the load the crossover sees is approximately 11 ohms, but if the speaker was connected to the crossover without this L-pad it would be 16 ohms.

 

Hence the introduction of the L-pad changes the load presented by the speaker on the crossover.

 

Hopefully this helps clear things up.

 

11 hours ago, rjp said:

deleted

[mikebse2a3]

wdecho we have been very respectful to you and we are only trying to get you to understand your not looking at the complete picture and some of your assumptions like how optimized crossovers are designed are just not correct.

 

That was a very good post rjp ...!

 

I have no desire to continue this especially with wdecho attitude .

 

miketn

[Guest wdecho]

49 minutes ago, mikebse2a3 said:

wdecho we have been very respectful to you and we are only trying to get you to understand your not looking at the complete picture and some of your assumptions like how optimized crossovers are designed are just not correct.

 

That was a very good post rjp ...!

 

I have no desire to continue this especially with wdecho attitude .

 

miketn

Care to take this up on a technical forum? I expect not for a good reason. Not hard to understand just simple electronics guys. I see the complete picture very clear and you sir are wrong with you assumptions. I understand very well the changing impedance of a driver with frequency but changing the resistance of the driver with frequency to compensate for this is impossible in the real world and is not necessary. You are just trying to complicate something that is so very simple to understand to make a point. It is very clear what attenuation of a driver is if you can read my last post. Arguing with you guys that are so intent to prove they are right is a total waste of my time as well. On a technical forum I am afraid some members would not be as nice and take the time try to explain basic electronics as I have. Using yours and rip logic for designing a crossover with attenuation would be impossible to implement. If so work up a electronic schematic and show everyone how you would compensate for the changing impedance of a driver within a crossover that requires attenuation of a driver. You would have to have an electronic resistors that can analyze the frequency and implement the required resistance and still keep the driver's impedance the same. I know of no such device or circuit and sirs I do not believe you do as well. All this talk of frequency, and the changing of impedance when designing a crossover and attenuation network is just foolish talk. I have never heard of such a device. You and rip are talking theories and not practical applications of crossover design and attenuation of a driver. I do not understand why you and rip cannot understand the simple function of attenuating a driver and maintaining the impedance of the driver so as not effect the crossover. It is not that complicated. It appears that you and rip want to argue for the sake of arguing and I have lost my patience with members that want to do that. 

 

Members if you have a driver that is too hot install a L-pad and rest assured that is what they are designed for and will not effect the crossover network to any degree. That is the been the acceptable way for attenuation by engineers and designers far more intelligent than any member of this social media form no matter that they say, for decades. If anyone thinks they improve on that they should apply for a position at a university or electronic firm and write papers that can be reviewed. As far as not continuing this conversion here, I think it would be a wise decision on your part sir.  

 

[Guest wdecho]

deleted

[Kevin S]

I would humbly suggest that you leave the good work of Mr. Delgado and his associates at Klipsch alone and continue to fine tune speaker placement and listening position. If your receiver/amplifier has tone controls, maybe give them a twist. 

[ODS123]

1 hour ago, Kevin S said:

I would humbly suggest that you leave the good work of Mr. Delgado and his associates at Klipsch alone and continue to fine tune speaker placement and listening position. If your receiver/amplifier has tone controls, maybe give them a twist. 

 

Well said.   Why not just get a pre-amp or integrated w/ tone controls??

[Guest wdecho]

I have deleted some of the previous post I made. No sense in arguing with members that consider themselves crossover design experts and the common sense method of installing a L-pad is not a correct way of attenuating a too hot driver. The world will end if one does this and one should just live with the hot driver or ask them to design a network that will solve the hot driver problem. The conversation has gotten too technical on their part for 95% or more of the members here including myself. I am well informed about the hard complicated way of crossover design that most or very few on this forum would care about learning. Here is an old thread on diyaudio that goes into the complicated way of designing a crossover network that and  I would not agree with everything being said but it is very informative for anyone that wants to go that deep into that field.  http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/multi-way/189847-introduction-designing-crossovers-measurement.html  Much of what is being stated by a couple of members on this thread can be found here along with much more. There are many articles on the web on crossover design, some very technical with quantity of parts that I would consider unnecessary. For an example by a Klipsch designer would be the AL crossover that is considered the worst crossover by most on the earlier Heritage line. I have designed many crossovers for my personal use, most being simple first order ones with the fewest parts necessary for the job at hand. I like to keep things simple. The popular Klipsch A crossover is a perfect example. There is not even an inductor on the mid driver cutting off the highs when transforming over to the tweeter but depends on the natural roll off of the mid driver itself. PWK thought using one unnecessary. Simple and nice crossover. Some consider the AA a better crossover for the K-77 tweeter being that it uses a 3rd order constant K filter on the tweeter to protect it and supposedly some adjustment to a rising peak. 

 

When I am wanting to design a new crossover for a new set of drivers for a new project I go to this site. https://www.diyaudioandvideo.com/  Good enough for me and most of the diy'ers that I know use this site for their computations in their design when building a speaker and designing a network for it. You will not find a calculator for the complicated design the members here want to discuss though. I am old enough to remember taking electronic classes when one had only a pencil and paper to do the math to solve an ohms law equation. There were not cheap electronic calculators or the WWW. Now I just use the many electronic calculators available online such as the ones on the site I have mentioned above. The calculators on the above site are good enough for me and I am lazy. 

 

I want to apologize if I have offended anyone with any of my statements. There are many ways for a country boy to go to town. Some easy, quick and simple and those that are complicated and hard. L-pads are sold for attenuation of a driver that is too hot. If it introduces any changes in the crossover it will not be enough to be heard or make  a difference other than taming a too hot driver. The world will not end. 

 

[Guest wdecho]

11 hours ago, Kevin S said:

I would humbly suggest that you leave the good work of Mr. Delgado and his associates at Klipsch alone and continue to fine tune speaker placement and listening position. If your receiver/amplifier has tone controls, maybe give them a twist. 

What if you have tried everything simple like speaker placement and listening position and the expensive speakers you just bought are still too bright and tiring and irritating after an hour or so of listening. It may not be a fault of the speaker itself but probably has more to do with the environment it is placed in. Speaker manufacturers are not going to market a product that most consider irritating. But no two environments are the same, hence the need for some to make some adjustments. There are expensive ways of changing the environment the speaker you just bought are in but rarely is this acceptable especially if there is a significant other living in the same house.  What if you are a purist and are against any form of tone controls seeing their use as being more detrimental to the sound quality than the results they are supposed to correct. What is someone then supposed to do? Chalk it up as a bad purchase and try and sell them at a lose? I suppose one could do as some members here have suggested and design a new complicated crossover using electronic formulas and calculations to attenuate the driver a few more db's. That is if the schematic of said speaker is published. But then if it is not one could then remove the crossover and reverse engineer the crossover and produce a schematic and then go through the complicated process of designing a new crossover for the frequency points of the original crossover and then add a few more db's of attenuation for the problem driver using the complicated electronic formulas and calculations members here have suggested. But wait there is a simple aftermarket product called a L-pad that is not supposed to upset the crossover to any degree that will reduce the brightness and harshness that is very irritating after an hour or so listening. But then there are members here that say "no you cannot do that". They have enough electronic background to produce formulas and calculations explaining how one resistor for attenuation of the driver in series is going to totally upset the crossover. But wait there has to be another resistor in parallel with the driver to keep the  impedance of the driver the same which is supposed to keep the resistance the crossover sees the same so as to not to effect the crossover points in the network to any extent. But then there are critics willing to claim 'Oh no you cannot do that" as well. But then there are critics of most any electronic circuit in the audio field. There are critics of running a J-fet at the IDSS value as Nelson Pass does in some of his products saying the same thing, "Oh you cannot do that". His response is "I do it anyway."

 

I will not listen with a speaker that I consider irritating and I will not resort to distorting the signal with tone controls. Most high end products do not have tone controls or equalizers for a reason. I have multiple buffers and preamplifiers and I assure you none have any form of tone controls distorting the sound. They are not necessary for a properly designed amplifier and speaker system. I consider them as a tool for the masses who are not that serious about quality sound or maybe cannot hear the difference. You will not find tone controls on preamplifiers Passlabs sell for the starting price of over $5,000 and going up. If tone controls are so great why is someone as talented as Nelson Pass not including them in his products? 

 

My point guys is there is an aftermarket product called a L-pad that is designed and made for too bright a driver. Simple, effective, and cheap that will cure the problem of a too bright irritating driver in a speaker and you can rest assured you have not destroyed your crossover by using one. All you will do is make your speaker a joy to sit down and listen to. 

 

I mean no disrespect to any member with a different viewpoint. I am guilty of being too opinionated and not being too diplomatic in my correspondence. I can assure you I respect your opinions and try to see and understand your viewpoint. Many times I am wrong and I try to apologize to the individual when I find out I have done so. I just like to keep subjects and cures as simple and effective as possible that most anyone on this forum can understand and employ. I want to apologize again if I have offended anyone. I try to acknowledge my faults. It is more important to be civil and respectful of others than to be right. 

[Kevin S]

4 hours ago, wdecho said:

What if you have tried everything simple like speaker placement and listening position and the expensive speakers you just bought are still too bright and tiring and irritating after an hour or so of listening. It may not be a fault of the speaker itself but probably has more to do with the environment it is placed in. Speaker manufacturers are not going to market a product that most consider irritating. But no two environments are the same, hence the need for some to make some adjustments. There are expensive ways of changing the environment the speaker you just bought are in but rarely is this acceptable especially if there is a significant other living in the same house.  What if you are a purist and are against any form of tone controls seeing their use as being more detrimental to the sound quality than the results they are supposed to correct. What is someone then supposed to do? Chalk it up as a bad purchase and try and sell them at a lose? I suppose one could do as some members here have suggested and design a new complicated crossover using electronic formulas and calculations to attenuate the driver a few more db's. That is if the schematic of said speaker is published. But then if it is not one could then remove the crossover and reverse engineer the crossover and produce a schematic and then go through the complicated process of designing a new crossover for the frequency points of the original crossover and then add a few more db's of attenuation for the problem driver using the complicated electronic formulas and calculations members here have suggested. But wait there is a simple aftermarket product called a L-pad that is not supposed to upset the crossover to any degree that will reduce the brightness and harshness that is very irritating after an hour or so listening. But then there are members here that say "no you cannot do that". They have enough electronic background to produce formulas and calculations explaining how one resistor for attenuation of the driver in series is going to totally upset the crossover. But wait there has to be another resistor in parallel with the driver to keep the  impedance of the driver the same which is supposed to keep the resistance the crossover sees the same so as to not to effect the crossover points in the network to any extent. But then there are critics willing to claim 'Oh no you cannot do that" as well. But then there are critics of most any electronic circuit in the audio field. There are critics of running a J-fet at the IDSS value as Nelson Pass does in some of his products saying the same thing, "Oh you cannot do that". His response is "I do it anyway."

 

I will not listen with a speaker that I consider irritating and I will not resort to distorting the signal with tone controls. Most high end products do not have tone controls or equalizers for a reason. I have multiple buffers and preamplifiers and I assure you none have any form of tone controls distorting the sound. They are not necessary for a properly designed amplifier and speaker system. I consider them as a tool for the masses who are not that serious about quality sound or maybe cannot hear the difference. You will not find tone controls on preamplifiers Passlabs sell for the starting price of over $5,000 and going up. If tone controls are so great why is someone as talented as Nelson Pass not including them in his products? 

 

My point guys is there is an aftermarket product called a L-pad that is designed and made for too bright a driver. Simple, effective, and cheap that will cure the problem of a too bright irritating driver in a speaker and you can rest assured you have not destroyed your crossover by using one. All you will do is make your speaker a joy to sit down and listen to. 

 

I mean no disrespect to any member with a different viewpoint. I am guilty of being too opinionated and not being too diplomatic in my correspondence. I can assure you I respect your opinions and try to see and understand your viewpoint. Many times I am wrong and I try to apologize to the individual when I find out I have done so. I just like to keep subjects and cures as simple and effective as possible that most anyone on this forum can understand and employ. I want to apologize again if I have offended anyone. I try to acknowledge my faults. It is more important to be civil and respectful of others than to be right. 

 

If you purchased expensive speakers that are irritating to listen to after an hour of listening, you should probably revisit your purchasing processes.

 

I am blessed with ears that, while I feel they are discerning, cannot hear gnats fart or grass growing. So I hear no negative effects of well implemented tone controls. The fact that certain respected manufacturers exclude them from their products doesn’t automatically make other respected manufacturers that do include them wrong. They each have their reasons, I am sure. Different strokes for different folks. 

 

I suspect that a discerning listener, who does hear the effects of things such as tone control circuits in their off position, would hear the effects of an L-pad modification, regardless of any proof that they shouldn’t. So I would be surprised that a purist would implement such a fix to their expensive speakers.

 

If all else has failed, and before ripping apart and modifying my speakers, yes I would sell them and try to not make the same mistake on my next purchase.

 

I have no real talent for making modifications. Obviously, if one does have such talents, they have that option. However, if one is inclined to purchase expensive speakers, presumably chosen at least in part out of a respect for the talents of the person(s) who designed them, I think you destroy the intrinsic value of the speakers by cracking them open and modifying them. Unless you intend on keeping the modified speakers forever, you still stand to suffer the same or greater financial loss when you replace them than if you simply sold the unmodified speakers and moved on right from the beginning.

 

Thats my opinion on the matter. But like I said, different strokes for different folks.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest wdecho]

I can and do agree with most everything you have said other than L-pads being intrusive to the music vs tone controls. L-pads are nothing more than variable resistors, the least offensive electronic component and only two of them. Tone controls usually operate with op-amps who one can find a schematic of the circuit online for their particular op-amp used and you will see a very complicated circuit and you then add the circuit around the op-amp to produce the results desired and you will find many components. i am from the school of less is better when reproducing sound. That is one reason SET tube amplifiers are still popular. Simple circuits with few parts to interfere with the music one wants to hear. With an equalizer or tone control you have in effect have a sound effect device. Nothing wrong with that from my perspective if that is what is pleasant to you but you should understand what you are listening to. In my younger days I felt much the same as you do now. I have  bought many sound effect devices years ago thinking I was improving the sound. The problem with most is that they feel that what they are listening with is great sounding and they will never know the difference until hearing a proper better system. I once owned a Crown IC-150 preamplifier with tone controls and a DC-300A to power my LaScala's and purchased a DBX 119 to increase the dynamics of an LP. I thought I had a great system. I now understand that the Crown IC-150 was nothing more than a op-amp pre with fantastic numbers but not that great sounding actually. The DC300A was an outstanding built amplifier that was made to professional standards that lasted 30 years but in actuality was not that great sounding as well. What I was missing was the in the room singer experience that makes you believe you can reach out and touch them with a room filling sound stage and holographic presence. Which I believe one can only achieve with simple circuits using outstanding components with little or no feedback. Until you experience it for yourself you will never be able to understand what I am saying. 

 

I have a best friend that is a sound man for a couple of local bands and his remedy, of course, for an acoustic problem is a graphic analyzer. After hearing my setup though he has a different opinion of what sounds best in a home environment. He even went so far to buy a simple tube amplifier for his home Heresy speakers. The heart of a speaker system is the crossover. When you buy a speaker you are stuck with a one size fits all approach which in reality doesn't work for all environments. Many sellers of speakers include L-pads to tailor the sound for ones particular taste and room. I wish Klipsch did as well. I feel they would have many more happy customers. When you get the heart of the speaker system, the crossover, correct for your room most any quality amplifier is going to perform admirable. I speak from experience having built over 30 higher end amplifiers the last 10 years. The average consumers fix for a problem in their new speaker system is turn to tone controls or an equalizer which is understandable. I agree with you on this and I agree it will satisfy the average consumer with their average consumer amplifier. I am not trying to sound snobbish but only stating what you are missing in a properly designed system with few sound effect devices in the way of your recorded source. There is another world out there in sound for those that want to travel down that road and it doesn't have to be expensive. 

 

This is from an old man's experience of almost 70 years traveling down the road of audio electronics and reproduction. I heard a great system 30 or 40 years ago in a showroom of my home town. It was a pair of Klipschorns driven by a McIntosh tube amplifier and it took me decades to reach that moment in my home being stubborn listening to the rags being published at the time touting the advantages of the newest class A/B SS amplifier their rag was advertising for. It would have saved me tons of money if had just bought that system to begin with. 

[MEH Synergy]

Sorry but...

[ODS123]

6 hours ago, wdecho said:

 

I will not listen with a speaker that I consider irritating and I will not resort to distorting the signal with tone controls. Most high end products do not have tone controls or equalizers for a reason. I have multiple buffers and preamplifiers and I assure you none have any form of tone controls distorting the sound. They are not necessary for a properly designed amplifier and speaker system.

 

I'm sorry but given your unshakeable belief in audiophile orthodoxy there may be no way to really help you but to suggest you buy different speakers.

 

Or, alternatively, maybe you can disabuse yourself of your notion that tone controls somehow audibly (operative word here) damage the signal.  I'll never understand how a signal is supposedly damaged by passing through a zero'd bass/treble control.  You do realize that most of the recorded music you listen to has - since the note was played by the musician, to the time it's burned onto your cd - passed through dozens, maybe hundreds of signal breaks, including equalizer, attenuators, etc...  If each such break incrementally reduced the signal that passed through, you'd think the signal would be rendered unrecognizable

 

 

 

[Guest wdecho]

15 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

Sorry but...

😃 I agree, I have stated my views and position on this subject and I am ready to bury the cow.

[Guest wdecho]

4 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

I'm sorry but given your unshakeable belief in audiophile orthodoxy there may be no way to really help you but to suggest you buy different speakers.

And why would I do that when they sound outstanding and I do not need any help from you.