Really impressed with the Heresy III

[willland]

29 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

So no, I DON'T think tone controls are used by those who aren't serious about their music.  ..In fact, I believe the converse is true.

I agree totally.  Well implemented/designed tone controls can do wonders in a not so ideal room or poorly recorded audio.

 

Bill

[Guest wdecho]

1 hour ago, ODS123 said:

 

Sorry but I didn't mean to imply this.  ..In fact, I very much disagree.  Using myself as an example, I will use my tone controls to make a wonderful song that is poorly recored listenable, whereas the ardent audiophile will often simply chose to never listen to that same song.  ..which is a shame because there is TONS of great songs that are quite poorly recorded.

 

Moreover, in my life I have seen the most extensive music collections - LP and CD - belonging to people w/ full-feature receivers/ integrateds rather than purist audiophiles w/ minimalist featureless gear..  Indeed, some of the latter have barely 50-60 albums.   So no, I DON'T think tone controls are used by those who aren't serious about their music.  ..In fact, I believe the converse is true.

Difference in opinions are what make forums interesting. I am from the school of straight line with amplification is best. Simple electronic circuits with the fewest number of parts. You may make a poor lp or cd playable with tone controls but you will sacrifice the life in the music. You are correct in that if I have a poorly recorded medium I would be reluctant to listen to it.

[Kevin S]

It has always struck me as odd how many "purists" listen using sources and amplification that have easily measurable, and based on their professed abilities to hear the most minute differences in sound reproduction, easily hearable distortion. And, if they are Klipsch Heritage speaker owners they own speakers designed by a man who considered such distortions an anathema and designed his speakers to have the lowest distortion possible. In fact, the speakers probably have lower distortion than anything they have hooked up upstream. Yet they turn their nose up at a tone control, or any other such device, because of it's supposed impact on the purity of their highly distorted sound. 

[rjp]

8 hours ago, wdecho said:

I just noticed that you are the OP, original poster of this thread. Why are you complaining on a social media forum about a too hot speaker you have just bought when you are now showing with the above formula and calculations that you have the ability and electronic background to understand why in your opinion that adding a simple out of the box L-pad is not the correct way of attenuating a too hot driver in a pair of new speakers you have just purchased? Why are you not just reverse engineer the crossover installed in your speakers to understand the circuit the engineers at Klipsch deemed as sounding best for their new pair of Heresy speakers. After understanding how the circuit works then use the formulas and electronic calculations to add a few more db's of attenuation and still keep the integrity of the original design. I believe I could and from this post you seem to have a better understanding of electronic formulas and calculations than I do. Or if you do not want to do it this way then design a new crossover to suit your expectations on how a crossover network should be designed.   

 

I am more confused now about your complaining on a social media forum about a new pair of speakers when you are showing you have the ability to correct the problem without any help from anyone here. Very confusing. 

wdecho: I had made up my mind I wasn't going to respond to any more of your posts after the way you have abused everyone, including myself, trying to help you. But for the sake of other readers who might be confused by your latest missinformation I want to set the record straight.

 

(1) The Klipsch HIII is the best speaker I have heard in all of the speakers I have auditioned, but yes, it is still a little harsh on my ears at times. I plan to keep them because they do so many other things well.

(2) I believe L-pads are an *excellent* way to tame "too hot a driver".  I explained this to you in this thread and months ago in a similar thread. The point of all the math was to demonstrate to you that the L-pad will change the load the crossover sees (an assertion you seem unwilling or unable to recognize). I never made the claim it was "the wrong way to do it", just that it wasn't totally inert as you claimed.  Hear this. I believe that although the L-pad will change the load, this change is *very likely not significant* enough to ever be heard, This means I agree with you that L-Pads are good!!!!!!!! Get it yet?

(3)L-pads may in fact be the best approach to too hot a driver. Equalization is another very good approach. I like and use them both.

(4) I don't want to change the crossovers in my new speakers.

(5) Please stop telling people with way more education than you that they need to go to electronics school.

 

Here is the simplified version of the above:

(1) L-pads are an excellent choice for taming too hot a driver.

(2) L-pads will effect the crossover slightly but you probably wont hear it.

(3) Stop being rude.

 

[MEH Synergy]

For those that think EQ is the devil, as has already been mentioned somewhere, TONS of EQ is using during mixing and mastering.   So guess what?   You love it and in addition add in compressors, gates and so on.  That said, eq does not have to be additive.   If I do use eq, once in awhile, I use it as subtractive.   Less noise is added.  Boost frequencies and sweep with Q until you find what is obnoxious to you and then try to cut that frequency 1-3 db with the most narrow Q to get the job done. That should be to your liking and minimize negative effects of something added into the chain.   Eqs come in many varieties and if you are listening digitally, often soft versions of good plug-ins are virtually inaudible added into the chain or bypassed before any processing is done.  Just my 2 cent.  No L pad required 😃

[MEH Synergy]

You guys really think the heresy III is too hot anywhere?   To each his or her own but these speakers are SMOOTH.  I stand by what I say that klipsch should be marketing the heresy III very hard and be giving proper demos of these speakers to get people hooked into the Heritage sound.  They are an easy gateway drug. These speakers are INCREDIBLE for their price point.  

[rjp]

Westcoast, perfect!

This is why I like parametric EQ the best. Find the "annoying" frequencies and cut them out. It's hard to do this with a graphic even with 1/3 octave sliders. Give me to good PEQs any day!

 

[MEH Synergy]

I have worked in studios and this is the fastest and easiest way to tame something you don't like and is done in seconds by professionals that are responsible for the end product t thay you hear.  

[rjp]

Just now, Westcoastdrums said:

You guys really think the heresy III is too hot anywhere?   To each his or her own but these speakers are SMOOTH.  I stand by what I say that klipsch should be marketing the heresy III very hard and be giving proper demos of these speakers to get people hooked into the Heritage sound.  They are an easy gateway drug. These speakers are INCREDIBLE for their price point.  

It depends on the room I suppose. Maybe "too hot" is not the right word. It's just that sometimes I want them to calm down and be mellow for a while

 

It's hard to describe musical stuff with words. 

[rjp]

2 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

I have worked in studios and this is the fastest and easiest way to tame something you don't like and is done in seconds by professionals that are responsible for the end product t thay you hear.  

Me too. I learned to love the PEQs from working sound for bands. But where can one buy a nice *analog* 2-band PEQ for home use that doesn't look like a guitar stomp box?

 

[MEH Synergy]

Let them break in.   Turn them up and leave the house while doing so if you can get away with it.   I thought they were quite harsh upon until listen and thought I had made a mistake.   I quickly changed my mind after break in.  

[rjp]

Do they make analog versions?

 

[MEH Synergy]

Ashley makes decent stuff that is cheap and sounds pretty good to my ears.  Their Crossovers are pretty good too.   Again, this comes down to price point.  Of course there is always better. 

[ODS123]

3 hours ago, Westcoastdrums said:

For those that think EQ is the devil, as has already been mentioned somewhere, TONS of EQ is using during mixing and mastering.   So guess what?   You love it and in addition add in compressors, gates and so on.  

 

This is of course true.  ..The idea that the signal is AUDIBLY (!) degraded EVERY time the signal passes through a pot, slider, etc.. is not rooted in fact.  As I said, if this were true then a signal would be rendered unrecognizable by a mixing board.  ..And we know that is not the case.  Perhaps EVERY audiophile favorite - including steely dan, patricia barber, Norah jones, etc. - was recorded using something like this.  So I recommend any newbies who read this thread to be VERY suspicious of any audiophile who tells you to avoid Tone controls b/c - even when zero'd - they AUDIBLY damage the signal.  This is simply nonsense.

 

[MEH Synergy]

There is a HUGE difference in quality between what you use, what a recording/mixing engineer uses and what a mastering engineer uses.  The quality ramps up tremendously and I have high levels of respect for mastering engineers.  You guys think you are tweakers?  Not in the slightest by comparison.  Point is subtractive is better than additive.   Noise floor is very low in most modern or even close to modern recordings as they are almost all done in the digital domain and the ceiling is higher.  If someone is truly bothered by something that is too hot, use a FREE digital parametric eq and see if you can bring the sound to your liking before buying more equipment that may or may not fix your problem. 

[MEH Synergy]

"the signal is AUDIBLY (!) degraded is not rooted in fact". 

 

Depends on what you want to call degraded.   It is a FACT that noise is added each time something new is introduced into the signal chain. There is no argument there.  When you are mixing and using a 70+ channel board and you are often introducing multiple processing elements on each channel, you can do the math there.  If we added one item to each of the 70 channels, you are at 70 items. You can see how noise can get to be an issue.  Digital has a glass ceiling that once broken enters very obvious distortion.  Thai is why subtractive instrqd of additive is done where possible.  

[ODS123]

2 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

"the signal is AUDIBLY (!) degraded is not rooted in fact". 

 

Depends on what you want to call degraded.   It is a FACT that noise is added each time something new is introduced into the signal chain.   

 

Well engineered pre-amps and integrated amps that feature tone controls have noise levels that are well below our hearing threshold.  My current (Mac MA6600) and previous integrated (NAD 375bee) and even my AVR (Onkyo TX NR1030) all have noise levels that are basically inaudible.   So if I'm paying a price for each of these having tone controls, what would that price be??

[MEH Synergy]

You are correct. I don't dispute your statement.  What I said was having 70+ channels on a mixing board with multiple processing being done on EACH channel, meaning 70+ eqs for example, though this wouldn't be done.  I am FOR eq for those that feel it is needed.  I don't think it harms the signal unless it is quite a low quality unit.  This is why I recommend trying digital if you are in the digital domain. If you are Not, I always like to have a unit that has bypass able eq.   I rarely use it but do like the comfort of it being there. 

[MEH Synergy]

I am just giving my two cents as this L pad argument was getting heated and I am speaker from a recording engineering standpoint, which I went to school for and worked in the industry.  

[Marvel]

Speaking of the L-pad discussion...

 

I would guess that many, if not most, early speaker systems out there had single pole crossovers, so using an L-pad would be much of an issue if the crossover point shifted a little bit. On an extreme slope crossover, it might not be as benign.

 

Nice pic, btw. I haven't been in a studio in a long, long time.

Bruce