Really impressed with the Heresy III

[Guest wdecho]

4 hours ago, rjp said:

wdecho: I had made up my mind I wasn't going to respond to any more of your posts after the way you have abused everyone, including myself, trying to help you. But for the sake of other readers who might be confused by your latest missinformation I want to set the record straight.

I never asked for any help, but you were determined to show everyone how intelligent you are by many postings of how a simple L-pad would alter the frequency of the crossover. And you know nothing about my education or intelligence in fact I consider you somewhat arrogant. I do not consider myself being rude to anyone but rather disputed what you and 2A3 guy were saying about how a L-pad was going to upset the balance of a crossover network. Pure arrogant BS with no common sense approach to such an easy cure. You sir are the one that needs to get off their high horse insulting me with your perceived higher education as if that would mean anything. I know many educated fools. 

 

That being said, I am glad you finally have to admit that installing a L-pad for too hot a driver is not going to make the sky fall in a crossover network. It does show some integrity on your part. You could have said as much days earlier and prevented so much back and forth instead of trying to prove a point on this forum, and I do understand your technical point but it has no bearing in the real world. No one has been abused. I was just firm in my disputing what you and 2A3 guy was inferring. Many would have not and would have left the impression to members who have no interest in learning electronics with the assumption that a simple L-pad was an evil thing to install on their speakers. No matter what you think about me I am glad the record is set straight. And not responding any more to any of my post would be appreciated by myself if you have any self control. I can assure you I can do the same with any of your post not concerning me. 

[rjp]

Back on Page 3 we had this conversation. I told you I like L-pads.

I even told you I bought the same L-pads as you from Parts Express for just this purpose.

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest wdecho]

4 minutes ago, rjp said:

Back on Page 3 we had this conversation. I told you I like L-pads.

I even told you I bought the same L-pads as you from Parts Express for just this purpose.

 

 

 

 

 

Then why start this back and forth again? As one poster recently showed hitting a dead cow over and over.  I only try and help other members with as easy cure for a problem if I can. 

[rjp]

I know you try to help members. Thanks for your contributions. Let's just move on for now and put this behind us.

[Guest wdecho]

I can respect anyone else's opinion on a subject but I also am entitled to give my opinion as well. No matter what you think I hold no hard feelings to anyone. I am sure deep down you are a very nice guy, but as myself, can get carried away proving a point. Any and all electronic components can and do interfere with a signal. None are perfect but a resistor is still going to be the least offensive of any electronic component. Even one of them is omitted in a circuit designed by Nelson Pass if it can be and by it's omission not significantly upset the circuit. I can understand the point you were making but I was just insisting that it's use in taming a hot driver is not going to change anything in the crossover of any significance. Your point was taken. 

[Guest wdecho]

3 minutes ago, rjp said:

I know you try to help members. Thanks for your contributions. Let's just move on for now and put this behind us.

Well said, and I agree. Life is good, love you brother. I feel much better now that there is no hard feelings but just friendly heated debating. Some of the most heated arguments are in business meetings at a place of worship. 

[MEH Synergy]

There we go. Heated debates sometimes just best to agree to disagree and walk away.  

[cincymat]

Wow, all this over a pair of H III. 

 

Just aim the darn things so the mids and tweeters don’t aim directly at your ears. 

 

Questions? Read PWK. 

 

Good Lord........

 

 

[MEH Synergy]

You said it... 

[Guest wdecho]

I once new an old man who claimed him and his wife had never had an argument over the 30 years they had been married. But then he said they had been accused of waking the neighbors discussing things early in the morning.

 

 

 

 

[cincymat]

28 minutes ago, wdecho said:

I once new an old man who claimed him and his wife had never had an argument over the 30 years they had been married. But then he said they had been accused of waking the neighbors discussing things early in the morning.

 

 

 

 

Well,  I’ve been married for almost 40 years so you must be referring to a younger pup.

 

 

[Guest wdecho]

On the subject of tone controls vs the simplistic approach to amplification, there will always be two camps with no outright winner. Very much like the debate of CD's vs vinyl. From some of my post one can guess which camp I belong to. I am a devoted follower of Nelson Pass and his view of simplistic circuits. His Firstwatt F5 amplifier was a tremendous success consisting of eight semiconductors and 23 resistors. He envisioned a circuit using only 4 transistors and 4 resistors and the newest Firstwatt amplifier was born, the Firstwatt F7 with a lower price tag than any of the Firstwatt amplifiers, $3000. In the final product he did think it necessary to install 1 more resistors to install what is called positive current feedback being that the semiconductors used were lateral mosfets that have a very low damping factor if positive current feedback is not installed to "dance" with the slight amount of negative feedback. This raised the damping factor and produced a very popular amplifier. What amazes me is the biggest market for Passlabs and Firstwatt products is overseas and not here in the United States. Probably shows that there are more serious listeners of music elsewhere in the world. Anyone that cares to read more about the F7 and it's design can read about it here. http://www.firstwatt.com/pdf/prod_f7_man.pdf   I have a version of the F7 I have built developed by some the brilliant minds on the Diyaudio forum Passlabs section. The official circuit has not been published but being that Nelson released so much details on the design it was not that hard using software for some of the talented members to duplicate the circuit to almost if not the same one the F7 uses. I like it and have the circuit installed in a proper case which not all the Firstwatt designs I have built have found a permanent home. I believe there are some members on this forum that have purchased the F7.  

 

All that matters is that people here are enjoying music with whatever approach they deem best and of course purchasing Klipsch speakers. This is the only social media forum I participate in being my love of Klipsch speakers and horns because I think of other social media forums as a waste of my time.

 

No one has asked about what I think of the full range open baffle speaker setup vs horns. Short answer is it does sound very nice but what is missing is the details in the recording that you do not hear with the a conventional speaker and the loss of dynamics only horns can produce. I also find I miss the live performance feeling while listening. As an example in one of my Linda Ronstadt Nelson Riddle recordings with horns on one song you can hear in the background someone counting "one, two, three, four before the music begins. You do not hear that with the full range speaker and it is a 94db speaker. I do find the open baffle full range speaker to be enjoyable though but it will never replace my horns.  

[ODS123]

4 hours ago, wdecho said:

On the subject of tone controls vs the simplistic approach to amplification, there will always be two camps with no outright winner.

 

Yes of course, tone controls are NOT essential - this is self-evident as many people enjoy listening to their music without them.  But it's just as important to assert that they are NOT harmful to the signal when zero'd or taken out of the circuit with a Tone bypass switch..  That is a point worth restating for the impressionable newbies who may be reading this thread.  I urge them to be very skeptical of people who claim they can hear a signal being damaged by the addition of tone controls to an otherwise well-engineered integrated amp or pre-amplifier.  

 

Just I've said three times now, if a signal is audibly damaged by just two tone controls then why isn't it rendered totally unrecognizable by the hundreds of sliders, pots, etc... that are in the signal path of the mixing boards used to record so much of the audiophile-approved music many hear enjoy.

[Guest wdecho]

30 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Yes of course, tone controls are NOT essential - this is self-evident as many people enjoy listening to their music without them.  But it's just as important to assert that they are NOT harmful to the signal when zero'd or taken out of the circuit with a Tone bypass switch..  That is a point worth restating for the impressionable newbies who may be reading this thread.  I urge them to be very skeptical of people who claim they can hear a signal being damaged by the addition of tone controls to an otherwise well-engineered integrated amp or pre-amplifier.  

 

Just I've said three times now, if a signal is audibly damaged by just two tone controls then why isn't it rendered totally unrecognizable by the hundreds of sliders, pots, etc... that are in the signal path of the mixing boards used to record so much of the audiophile-approved music many hear enjoy.

Producing music is much different from amplifying what the producer installed on the recorded medium. As a person that believes in the opposite view point, I hope you will accept it, I would never introduce any sound effect device between my line stage, often called a preamplifier, and my power amplifier. As an example of an average audiophile that just spent $3000 for a Firstwatt F7 and bought one of Passlabs simplistic line stages that start at the price of $6000 and go much higher believing that less components sound best. There is no way he would consider putting an equalizer between line stage and amplifier full of components that would be a nightmare for a parts guy to inventory if one included the many parts that a op-amp has inside it. Of course there would be nothing wrong with having an equalizer to install between the line stage and power amplifier to play with at certain times, nothing wrong with that at all if one understands it is a sound effect device. From experience adjusting my speakers and the crossover for my room when you get them both right no other forms of equalization are ever needed. If one is required you do not have your system dialed in. Having over 20 complete amplifiers most all class A either tube or SS and there are differences between them. Some better bass, some better mids and some better highs but all sound respectable in their own right or I would tear them down and use the parts to build a better one. 

 

I accept your view point, and find nothing wrong with it as such, but my view point as many others that buy the higher end products is much different. I've used and had tone controls in the past and used them as well but have not found a need for such in many years. 

[MEH Synergy]

"From experienceadjusting my speakers and the crossover for my room when you get them both right no other forms of equalization are ever needed. " 

 

I don't know about the extremes of the words always and never, but I agree with your point here.  Doesn't hurt to HAVE eq if it is already part of the circuit and bypassed , but I almost never use it once the speakers are setup correctly.  Cable naysayers will say otherwise but in my experience, cables can "flavor" a system nicely as well.  

[Guest wdecho]

19 minutes ago, Westcoastdrums said:

"From experienceadjusting my speakers and the crossover for my room when you get them both right no other forms of equalization are ever needed. " 

 

I don't know about the extremes of the words always and never, but I agree with your point here.  Doesn't hurt to HAVE eq if it is already part of the circuit and bypassed , but I almost never use it once the speakers are setup correctly.  Cable naysayers will say otherwise but in my experience, cables can "flavor" a system nicely as well.  

I have heard from notable audio designers that cables and power cords as well can and do make a difference. But most say subtly. The saying is do not spend more on the power cord than you did for the amplifier. 

 

I should add that Firstwatt did in the past sell a buffer called the B1 which is the primary one I use for volume control that is excellent if you can find one in the used market. Someone on this forum was offering one for sale in the past week or so. The retail price was $1000. but it is easy to build for a diyer. The design has been published and available. I have built 3 of them preferring the B1 version 2 as better. Simple with few parts. 

[Guest wdecho]

I should add on why I am such a proponent of using L-pads on the mids and highs. It makes it so easy to dial a system in for your environment. You perceive that your system is lacking bass compared to the mids, dial both the mids and highs down a few db's and you have more bass. Too hot in the highs dial it down in down a few db's. By using them, just 2 variable resistors installed on the driver electronically will cure most complaints when one thinks they need tone controls and not effect the signal to any significant degree as the many components of an equalizer or tone controls. Better cleaner audio signal will be the result. For more technically inclined you can design a different crossover to refine the system even more but you will be surprised on how well L-pads can tailor the sound for your speakers environment. For skeptics and those that disagree, why not just try it and see for yourself. If one does not like the results of installing L-pads they are so easy to remove and put the driver back just as it was. You do not have to touch the crossover, they only have to be connected to the two wires going to the driver. You can do it with test leads with alligator clips and will not have to do any soldering to begin with and will not have to cut any wires. Nothing will be lost but the price of a meal on the town with your girl. As far as the warranty, my experience is that seldom if ever do the maker require one to send the entire speaker back. Too cost prohibitive and they will only require one to just send the driver in question to them for inspection and replacement if needed.  

 

There really is no need to make such a fuss about so simple a device as the two variable resistors in a L-pad. Just try it, you may like the results. Many speaker manufacturers still include L-pads on their speakers and I wish Klipsch did as well. 

[rjp]

I like tone controls as much as I like L-pads. And we all know I like L-pads, right? 

I see no problems as long as when they are set to zero I hear absolutely no change in the signal compared to a direct path. I auditioned and ultimately returned a product called miniDSP HD for this reason. I rigged up an A/B switch on the line level inputs and with all EQ functions on the miniDSP set to off I could still  hear a definite degradation in the sound quality. I assume this was due to the A/D - D/A stage itself which is essential for any digital tone control product of course. It was subtle but consistent. I performed the same test on a Schiit Loki 4 band EQ and it passed with flying colors. I may have already mentioned this above. I forget what thread I'm on sometimes.

 

My advice is if you have to have tone controls, get the good Schiit

http://www.schiit.com/products/loki

 

Speaker placement is effective. Many people roll tubes as a method of tone control as well. All methods have one thing in common: they emphasize some frequencies more than others. It's all "tone control".

 

[Shakeydeal]

The only problem (or one of them) that I see with inserting a Loki into the system is the added interconnects. I think that is more detrimental to the sound than tone controls that can be switched out of the signal path. I like the idea of the Loki, I would have to hear it's implementation though.

 

Shakey

[ODS123]

9 hours ago, wdecho said:

I have heard from notable audio designers that cables and power cords as well can and do make a difference. But most say subtly. The saying is do not spend more on the power cord than you did for the amplifier. 

 

Sorry, but that strikes me as totally incredible.  wdecho, you seem nice enough and you're obviously entitled to believe what you want - that's fine of course.  ..But I do once again urge any newbies lurking to give some long serious thought to that claim before upgrading beyond the cable that came with their component.  

 

Hey newbies, look at it this way: how can electricity come from a power plant 150 miles away, run through countless junction boxes, transformers, splices, wire of varying gauges - any of which might change on a daily basis - yet when we change the last three feet that runs from our power outlet to our amp, there is a noticeable change??   Yes, some claim to hear an improvement, but none of these claims take expectation bias (placebo effect)  into account.

 

Again, this is one of those things some will say, "hey, to each their own - try it and see if it works for you!"  ..Well, isn't this a science!?  Isn't electrical engineering founded on scientific principles??  It's not wine tasting.  ..It's engineering. This can be empirically tested yet few audiophile seems interested.