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Really impressed with the Heresy III


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8 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Sorry that strikes me as totally incredible.  wdecho, you seem nice enough and you're obviously entitled to believe what you want - that's fine of course.  ..But I do once again urge any newbies lurking to give some long serious thought to that claim before upgrading beyond the cable that came with their component.  

 

Hey newbies, look at it this way: how can electricity come from a power plant 150 miles away, run through countless junction boxes, transformers, splices, wire of varying gauges - any of which might change on a daily basis - yet when we change the last three feet that runs from our power outlet to our amp, there is a noticeable change??   Yes, some claim to hear an improvement, but none of these claims take expectation bias (placebo effect)  into account.

 

Again, this is one of those things some will say, "hey, to each their own - try it and see if it works for you!"  ..Well, isn't this a science!?  Isn't electrical engineering founded on scientific principles??  It's not wine tasting.  ..It's engineering. This can be empirically tested yet few audiophile seems interested.  

 

 

you're using the same regurgitated arguments. wdecho clearly states that that the cables can and do make a difference, albeit subtly. I currently use generic cables and wire, but have played extensively with different materials for speaker runs, interconnects, and even particpated in a travelling power cable test of about a dozen different compositions. The differences were subtle, but there. So don't just casually dismiss it, but instead people should be encouraged to experiment and see where their threshold for cost vs. change exists.

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9 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

 

 I currently use generic cables and wire, but have played extensively with different materials for speaker runs, interconnects, and even particpated in a travelling power cable test of about a dozen different compositions. The differences were subtle, but there. So don't just casually dismiss it, but instead people should be encouraged to experiment and see where their threshold for cost vs. change exists.

 

I would love to know the details of your cable test.  Specifically, how participants were kept from knowing if there were listening to the same or different cable (ie., blinded).  And also to know if ALL cables compared were deemed suitable for the purpose by a competent engineer.   I find claims of hearing even a "subtle" difference very hard to swallow.

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10 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

Sorry, but that strikes me as totally incredible.  wdecho, you seem nice enough and you're obviously entitled to believe what you want - that's fine of course.  ..But I do once again urge any newbies lurking to give some long serious thought to that claim before upgrading beyond the cable that came with their component.  

 

Hey newbies, look at it this way: how can electricity come from a power plant 150 miles away, run through countless junction boxes, transformers, splices, wire of varying gauges - any of which might change on a daily basis - yet when we change the last three feet that runs from our power outlet to our amp, there is a noticeable change??   Yes, some claim to hear an improvement, but none of these claims take expectation bias (placebo effect)  into account.

 

Again, this is one of those things some will say, "hey, to each their own - try it and see if it works for you!"  ..Well, isn't this a science!?  Isn't electrical engineering founded on scientific principles??  It's not wine tasting.  ..It's engineering. This can be empirically tested yet few audiophile seems interested.  

 

I have never spent tons of money on power cords or cables or for that matter speaker wire. I am like most diy'ers, cheap. Quality components but not extravagant ones. When I build an amplifier I want to hear the design and not expensive parts where the designer get's the credit. My power cords are just plain 18 gauge commercial ones, reasonably priced connection cables and decent 18 gauge copper speaker wire. I cannot speak from experience on this matter but I do trust some trusted engineers that say it does make a subtle difference. When you get to a certain level of audio reproduction in your home, let's say 90 to 95% excellent the extra 5%, 10% is going to cost lot's more money to achieve. I saw a video last week of a Japanese guy who paid for a power company transformer to be installed at his residence solely to provide the best cleanest AC current possible for his audio system. Some take their audio very serious. 

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I'll stir the pot a little, why not.   How many that are arguing these points have had their hearing tested RECENTLY?   I don't want to offend anyone, but prior to entering engineering audio school, a hearing test was basically mandatory.   You would be surprised at the results from some of the younger members.  Specifically how some were all but deaf above 10k at 25 years old.   I have heard what expensive cables can do in a proper system and I was amazed the first time I heard a true wall to wall, floor to ceiling Soundstage.   Some articles they publish AREN'T BS.  I have heard it with my own ears.   My hearing tested  VERY well about 3 years ago with FULL frequency range for the record.  Just because one doesn't hear the difference doesn't mean it doesn't exist.   

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29 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 

I would love to know the details of your cable test.  Specifically, how participants were kept from knowing if there were listening to the same or different cable (ie., blinded).

 

 I can't speak to the engineering certifications.. a member funded the whole project, along with the reference CD to be used and we all just paid for shipping from place to place. Obviously we couldn't double blind ourselves and install the cables and press play on the remote. but that doesn't mean differences weren't heard. i also used my wife as a litmus test while I spent the afternoon swapping things around.. she was milling around the house the entire time and would chime in when it sounded worse or better, without any request on my part to do so.

 

sorry i can't give you graphs or charts or data points.. only personal experience. I also like fancy crossovers with exotic parts, but i guess I'm an idiot in that regard as well.

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I don't consider myself a tweaker, but I am Def with thaddeus on this one.  BTW for shits and giggles, we spent on me afternoon in the studio with some of THE BEST EARS in the business testing different cables and THEIR ears heard a difference.  Must be in their head.   Placebo effect surely as their platinum records they turn out sound terrible.  

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8 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

 

  i guess I'm an idiot in that regard as well.

 

I haven't and wouldn't call you or anyone else that.  ..I'm not suggesting it either.  I'm trying to get people to acknowledge that audio engineering is a science and as such biases need to be recognized and controlled before we know whether something is really audible or not.  

 

WCD:  ..my hearing has been tested and it is just fine thanks.  Plus, I have a keen sense for musical nuance honed by a lifetime of listening to live and recorded music at reasonable sound levels.

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1 minute ago, ODS123 said:

 

I haven't and wouldn't call you or anyone else that.  ..I'm not suggesting it either.  I'm trying to get people to acknowledge that audio engineering is a science and as such biases need to be recognized and controlled before we know whether something is really audible or not.  

 

I absolutely acknowledge that. I'm trying to get you to acknowledge that you can't always measure what you hear...

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Guest wdecho

There are definitely persons that have extraordinary hearing above the norm. Nelson Pass uses some of the best of them when testing a new design of his. Most of his amplifiers include a touch of 2nd harmonics, we are talking fractions of 1%, that can be either positive or negative 2nd harmonic waves and some of those individuals can point out and tell the difference between the two. One of them was a older tester he used and he probably was an exception but it does show that like all things some are more talented than others. Even Nelson admits he cannot tell the difference as well as them between the positive or negative 2 harmonic wave.  

 

As with any long post we have strayed far from the OP on H111. 

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I'm not talking about measured differences b/w cables, I'm talking about repeatable identification b/w cables.  No need to do measurements at all, just whether a person can say, when blinded from which is in use, whether it's A, B, or neither.

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I have been using very tightly rolled paper towels lately as interconnects and speaker cables with paper clips on the end of them, and they sound just fine. Oh, but I do have them raised up off of the floor on specially finished mahogany cable risers. It seems to make a difference, but I’m not sure…

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57 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

I'm not talking about measured differences b/w cables, I'm talking about repeatable identification b/w cables.  No need to do measurements at all, just whether a person can say, when blinded from which is in use, whether it's A, B, or neither.

About 40 years ago, at a Detroit Chapter Audio Engineering Society meeting, I witnessed the use of an ABX box, invented by a group of local audio professionals. While it provided Statistical Proof of audibility between a random selection of A vs. B by X being one or the other (double blind testing basics) over 16 trials. BUT the A and B (usually a pre-amp or power amp) being switched in and out with a quality relay had to be Gain Level Matched to withing 0.1 db, otherwise the louder one would reveal itself. The point of it was that if you could clearly Identify X as sounding more like A or B correctly 12 times out of 16, then there clearly WAS an AUDIBLE difference. Very few, so called, "golden ears" had the guts to try it because it just might interfere with their quasi-religious beliefs of their favorite myths.

 

However much Scientific Validity of Testing was proven by this device, there were still detractors that claimed it was "masking" certain things by being in the circuit.

 

I don't know about y'all, but I can't hear a 1 PicoBel drop across a relay contact, can you????

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1 hour ago, jimjimbo said:

I have been using very tightly rolled paper towels lately as interconnects and speaker cables with paper clips on the end of them, and they sound just fine. Oh, but I do have them raised up off of the floor on specially finished mahogany cable risers. It seems to make a difference, but I’m not sure…

I forgot to mention, you have to use the "right" kind of paper towel, not just any old Costco brand...Brawny is my favorite, cause I think it's oxygen free and the fibers are tin coated.  Just a thought.

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1 minute ago, jimjimbo said:

I forgot to mention, you have to use the "right" kind of paper towel, not just any old Costco brand...Brawny is my favorite, cause I think it's oxygen free and the fibers are tin coated.  Just a thought.

 

I prefer binder clips over paper clips 

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2 minutes ago, Thaddeus Smith said:

 

I prefer binder clips over paper clips 

I'm trying to visualize that.....so, do you like the black ones, or the stainless?

 

Oh, wait, I forgot, Thaddeus probably only prefers the stainless cause that's what he utilizes to neuter his goats.....please forgive my indiscretion....

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