Jump to content

Holy Crap, Why use a pre-amp at all ?


Recommended Posts

Been looking for a pre to pair with the DRD300B (When they get here) I came across one called the Truth made by Ed Schilling, He mentions a review by Arthur Salvatore. I took the time to read the review linked here 

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html ) 

In the review Mr. Salvatore talks about DIRECT SOUND being the best one can hope to achieve, and is the ultimate reference by which to compare any pre-amps performance. After all every component is SUPPOSED to be neutral (Very subjective in my opinion) 

Since my system Now mainly consists of Digital files loaded to a Hard Drive in Flac form, Played using J-River Media Center.  PC connected to my DAC the Electrocompaniet ECD-1, and that now connected directly to the Dynaco 70 MK2, Amp connected to my Audio Nirvana 15" single driver speakers. J River allows me to adjust output before it reaches the DAC so the amp gets exactly what the dac sends it the only thing in between are blue jean cables.

 

This way of connecting everything seems the BEST way to judge an amp / tubes as well..........

 

Rebecca Pigeon Spanish Harlem, I have listened to this amazing recording HUNDREDS of times through many set ups including several Headphone rigs and today I got chills, Not imaginary the wife confirmed. I can hear subtle details that untill today were non existent. 

 

For me the draw back is 1 source at a time, and 1 output so no subs etc... If I am to Believe Mr. Salvatore's review  The Truth Pre is as close to Direct Connect as I can get so that may solve the multiple Outputs issue.  (If I decide that is an issue) For now it is decidedly a non issue. I dont see / hear much that xcites me these days and I just could not control my enthusiasm.  Had to Share

  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

 

- as you stated one reason for a preamp is to connect multiple sources. But in general, general, the reason for a preamp is to provide gain from the amp to the speakers. Many folks swear by the passive pre,  just as many disagree. It takes the right combination of amplifier output, source output, preamp gain and speaker sensitivity for a passive or volume only "preamp" to provide the magic you speak about.

I've tried every way possible and find a quality, quiet preamp my best option. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

More proof that simpler is better. No DSP, EQ, tone controls, or other gee gaws need apply.

 

I now have a tube integrated, but prior to that, I haven't used an active line stage in almost ten years. TVCs (transformer volume control) and LDRs (light dependent resistor) are much more transparent and dynamic than all active preamps I have owned up to 8K. With resistor based passives, dynamics could suffer with long cable runs or mismatched impedance. Not so with a TVC or LDR.

 

Owning high efficiency speakers like we do, there is very little need for an active preamp. Just more circuitry to get in the way of the music.

 

Again, JMHO, YMMV, and all that other crap.........

 

Shakey

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like the legal disclaimers at the end there Shakey. My source has been down to 2 for some time now, (1 as it stands today) I was using a basically passive pre (It had very little Gain) I can tell you there is quite a difference without it

A new life has been Born. A Dynaco st70 is not supposed to sound this damb good, I have had at least 3 over the years including the Mk3 mono blocks and I have never been IMPRESSED, they were all decent amps but never felt they were stellar. 

If you have the ability to try a direct connect it is worth the effort.  

Link to comment
Share on other sites

18 hours ago, joessportster said:

Been looking for a pre to pair with the DRD300B (When they get here) I came across one called the Truth made by Ed Schilling, He mentions a review by Arthur Salvatore. I took the time to read the review linked here 

http://www.high-endaudio.com/RC-Linestages.html ) 

In the review Mr. Salvatore talks about DIRECT SOUND being the best one can hope to achieve, and is the ultimate reference by which to compare any pre-amps performance. After all every component is SUPPOSED to be neutral (Very subjective in my opinion) 

Since my system Now mainly consists of Digital files loaded to a Hard Drive in Flac form, Played using J-River Media Center.  PC connected to my DAC the Electrocompaniet ECD-1, and that now connected directly to the Dynaco 70 MK2, Amp connected to my Audio Nirvana 15" single driver speakers. J River allows me to adjust output before it reaches the DAC so the amp gets exactly what the dac sends it the only thing in between are blue jean cables.

 

This way of connecting everything seems the BEST way to judge an amp / tubes as well..........

 

Rebecca Pigeon Spanish Harlem, I have listened to this amazing recording HUNDREDS of times through many set ups including several Headphone rigs and today I got chills, Not imaginary the wife confirmed. I can hear subtle details that untill today were non existent. 

 

For me the draw back is 1 source at a time, and 1 output so no subs etc... If I am to Believe Mr. Salvatore's review  The Truth Pre is as close to Direct Connect as I can get so that may solve the multiple Outputs issue.  (If I decide that is an issue) For now it is decidedly a non issue. I dont see / hear much that xcites me these days and I just could not control my enthusiasm.  Had to Share

Digital domain reduction is good as long as the math is such that you don't loose resolution as you turn down the volume.  Older lower bit width math or non-floating point (not sure they actually do that) may lead to data loss.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Sorry for the out of focus pic. Took a screen shot from one of my videos. My Rotel integrated has a tone bypass option which does exactly what it says. It bypasses the tone controls which usually, correction, always degrades the signal and sends the source directly to the speakers. I listen to all my music this way usually in vinyl format but do occasionally throw in a SACD.  When my last system a Kenwood Amp and control amp with EQ went out. It was the control amp that took a dump. I had gain control on my CD player so I hooked it directly to the amp and was blown away by how much better it sounded bypassing the EQ on the control amp. That's the reason I went from separates to an integrated and chose the Rotel. Best decision I've ever made. 

IMG_3120.PNG

Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, pzannucci said:

Digital domain reduction is good as long as the math is such that you don't loose resolution as you turn down the volume.  Older lower bit width math or non-floating point (not sure they actually do that) may lead to data loss.

How in the world could Data loss be attributed to Volume (The Data is transferred via the spdif cable to the DAC, which then upscales or not depending on the dac topology, the dac then sends an ANALOG signal to the Amp)  Fidelity maybe affected but that would be the speakers dont perform well at lower volumes. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

30 minutes ago, Harleywood said:

Sorry for the out of focus pic. Took a screen shot from one of my videos. My Rotel integrated has a tone bypass option which does exactly what it says. It bypasses the tone controls which usually, correction, always degrades the signal and sends the source directly to the speakers. I listen to all my music this way usually in vinyl format but do occasionally throw in a SACD.  When my last system a Kenwood Amp and control amp with EQ went out. It was the control amp that took a dump. I had gain control on my CD player so I hooked it directly to the amp and was blown away by how much better it sounded bypassing the EQ on the control amp. That's the reason I went from separates to an integrated and chose the Rotel. Best decision I've ever made. 

IMG_3120.PNG

Do you feel like the Rotel is as good as CD player directly to amp ? I understand some type pre, selector switch, volume control is a must for multiple sources I am just curious about how clean you perceive the rotel bypass is.......................Also in the Review linked above Salvatore discuses mainly having a phono pre directly connected. Now that would be scary and require a very well matched phono pre - amp

Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 7/17/2018 at 11:54 AM, Shakeydeal said:

More proof that simpler is better. No DSP, EQ, tone controls, or other gee gaws need apply.

 

I now have a tube integrated, but prior to that, I haven't used an active line stage in almost ten years. TVCs (transformer volume control) and LDRs (light dependent resistor) are much more transparent and dynamic than all active preamps I have owned up to 8K. With resistor based passives, dynamics could suffer with long cable runs or mismatched impedance. Not so with a TVC or LDR.

 

Owning high efficiency speakers like we do, there is very little need for an active preamp. Just more circuitry to get in the way of the music.

 

Again, JMHO, YMMV, and all that other crap.........

 

Shakey

 

Take a look at the Adcom GFP-750, a true class A Passive and Active Pre-amp.  Nelson Pass designed.  Can be fond used $750.00-$1,000.00 based on condition and market.  I have been very happy with mine.  I rarely if ever use in active mode.

 

Regards,

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, joessportster said:

Do you feel like the Rotel is as good as CD player directly to amp ? I understand some type pre, selector switch, volume control is a must for multiple sources I am just curious about how clean you perceive the rotel bypass is.......................Also in the Review linked above Salvatore discuses mainly having a phono pre directly connected. Now that would be scary and require a very well matched phono pre - amp

 

In theory that's exactly what Rotel is trying to accomplish with tone bypass and I think they've done a wonderful job. Granted it's still running through the integrated pre amp source selector and gain but it's one of the cleanest and neutral sounding integrateds I've heard and surpasses some separates. I've tried turning tone bypass off and setting the tone controls to my preference but I think it sounds so much cleaner and has better balance with it on. Rotel also incorporates a Wolfson on board DAC which is wonderful and what I think is one of the best built in phono pre amps. I shutter at thought of running a phono pre directly to an amp but of course I'm not that educated. Lol

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 minutes ago, dtel said:

A DAC with a volume knob works well also instead of a pre amp.

As long as it covers whet your trying to connect.

Never seen a dac with a volume control, if We did the signal would be kind of indirect In that it would go through the control. In my setup the volume is controlled before the signal hits the dac so the dac takes the signal upsamples it and sends it straight to the amp. nothing in between except the amp. I of course may be full of Crap...........I can say to my ears this is the cleanest sound I have had so far all upside except that you only get 1 source

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have been using the Emotiva XDA-2 for years. It has a remote and a volume control. It's got a great sounding DAC on board and allows for both balanced and unbalanced active outputs plus has plenty of inputs.

 

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/emotiva-xda-2-usb-dacdigital-preampheadphone-amp

 

You can find them for $200-300 regularly. I have used this as a preamp/DAC but it also has a nice sounding powerful headphone amp on board. With the four active outputs I run XLR to my XPA-2 amp and RCA to a pair of powered subs. 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

6 hours ago, joessportster said:

How in the world could Data loss be attributed to Volume (The Data is transferred via the spdif cable to the DAC, which then upscales or not depending on the dac topology, the dac then sends an ANALOG signal to the Amp)  Fidelity maybe affected but that would be the speakers dont perform well at lower volumes. 

 

With all due respect, you need to understand what pzannucci is saying.

He is correct in his caution and you seem to have dismissed his comments out of hand. My friendly advice is to take his comments seriously and read up on this problem. 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some good info on the subject:

https://www.soundstageultra.com/index.php/features-menu/general-interest-interviews-menu/311-what-s-wrong-with-digital-volume-controls

 

I have found that my Emotiva DC-1 DAC/preamp sounds more transparent and has more resolution connected directly to my Rotel RB-1582 MKII amp (via balanced cables) vs. connecting it to my Rotel RC-1580 preamp.  The DC-1 uses a Muses analog resister ladder for volume control (attenuation) after the DAC output gain stage.

 

Some DACs with volume control attenuate in the digital domain, and some do it in the analog domain.  Both can work well, if designed properly.

 

 

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Moderators
34 minutes ago, teaman said:

I have been using the Emotiva XDA-2 for years. It has a remote and a volume control. It's got a great sounding DAC on board and allows for both balanced and unbalanced active outputs plus has plenty of inputs.

 

https://www.innerfidelity.com/content/emotiva-xda-2-usb-dacdigital-preampheadphone-amp

 

You can find them for $200-300 regularly. I have used this as a preamp/DAC but it also has a nice sounding powerful headphone amp on board. With the four active outputs I run XLR to my XPA-2 amp and RCA to a pair of powered subs. 

Exactly, but I used the first version, it's also great to have a remote. 

 

I got it cheap when many were switching to the 2 version. I think many people get stuck on the brand for whatever reason but I would guess it sounds as good as many of the DAC's out there and built very well.  Myself I love things that easily outperforms their price range, again like the A-100 amp, better than it should be for the price.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

I read about all the devices people use to hook their systems up with and I guess I am a simple guy. I like the idea of using my workstation for mixing music for the day and feeding directly to a Crown xli and then to the MCM 1900's. Outside of the speakers the single biggest fidelity boost I have found was when I discovered the Realtec sound card had a high definition program download of some 250+ MB. So I thought what is there to lose by trying and this made a huge difference. My speaker customers are amazed at how simple my setup is for the sound produced.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

28 minutes ago, PrestonTom said:

 

With all due respect, you need to understand what pzannucci is saying.

He is correct in his caution and you seem to have dismissed his comments out of hand. My friendly advice is to take his comments seriously and read up on this problem. 

Not dismissing anyone out of hand, It was in fact a question, I did go look it up and it appears floating point is used in higher resolution devices 32 and up from what I read. I still dont see what it has to do with volume  I see how it has to do with the math involved in designing a DAP One wants consistent gaps for the best response. one design over the other goes way over my head but I have no intentions of designing. I just listen and subjectively decide what I think sounds best.....................For instance No Pre 

 

I appreciate all input

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

×
×
  • Create New...