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JFHSQT

New Owner of La Scala IIs - Couple of Q's for Other Owners?

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1 hour ago, garyrc said:

Behold the kick drum:
http://www.moultonlabs.com/images/gallery_images/articles/mixing_kick_bass01_medium.gif

Moulton Laboratories :: Principles of Multitrack Mixing: The Kick Drum ...image.png.cbf009db9b956061b0f3826b69b780e8.png]

 
I really hope the link works; this is one of the most informative graphs I've seen.
 
Back in a brief stereo recording course I had, they told us that the kick lived at about 60 Hz.  Wrong moose-breath!  Aside from it depending on the individual kick drum, and on how it may be damped (not "dampened," hopefully), its range is quite wide, and most of it is above the lower limit of the La Scala II.  I would still try subwoofer crossovers between about 50 Hz and 80 Hz, trying to take as much advantage of the LS II's impeccable transient response as possible..

 

Yep, a properly mic'd and recorded kick has a significant dynamic range. 

 

I've experimented with setting the crossover at 90 tonight, but haven't had much opportunity to listen to anything. Tomorrow I take delivery of the SB-16 Ultra and will dedicate quite a bit of time to dialing things in. 

 

BUT, one thing to mention about my particular system is that even though I am running my Anthem crossover at 90 or whatever, and sending those lower frequencies to the subwoofers, I am still actually running the La Scala IIs full range (no crossover) out of my analog rig at the same time. So I have the frequencies at 90Hz crossed over with a 24 dB slope running through the Anthem EQ & room correction into the subwoofer, but running a full lossless analog system into the L/R of my Luxman tube system into the La Scalas. So I am getting a full range signal out of the fronts but augmenting the lower frequencies with the subwoofers through the Anthem/subs.

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17 hours ago, JFHSQT said:

Yep, a properly mic'd and recorded kick has a significant dynamic range. 

 

 

Your combination of full range through the La Scala II and sub range through the sub is similar to "double bass," or "LFE + Main" with "LARGE" in some AVRs except you have more division of labor and your electronics are superb.  I love Luxman!

 

I'm sorry that, even though the link works, the graph is too tiny to read [at least on my screen].

 

Of course a kick drum has very wide dynamic range.  What I meant by "it's range is quite wide" was frequency range.  I neglected to label it, because it is so obvious in the graph -- that is fairly unreadable via the link. In addition to the obvious quasi-fundamental [it's not tuned in the conventional sense] the kick drum has a papery "smack" sound that may go all the way up to 16K Hz but only last a few milliseconds.  At 60 Hz, and even 51 Hz, it's still in La Scala II frequency range, where a single boom, as it fades to nothing (and is probably masked by other instruments as it gets softer), can last almost a second [800 ms].   A leading edge, at 60 Hz, can be almost 110 dB, and just a few ms long.

 

The following is probably copyrighted by Moulton Labs (although I could find no marks indicting that), so I want to give them credit.   Moulton Laboratories :: Principles of Multitrack Mixing: The Kick Drum  I heartily recommend all of their mixing articles that are listed on Google.

 

The Kick Drum:

image.png.ba04da2fcfa7dfd943c60b68cf933b70.png

 

 

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3 hours ago, garyrc said:

 

Your combination of full range through the La Scala II and sub range through the sub is similar to "double bass," or "LFE + Main" with "LARGE" in some AVRs except you have more division of labor and your electronics are superb.  I love Luxman!

 

I'm sorry that, even though the link works, the graph is too tiny to read [at least on my screen].

 

Of course a kick drum has very wide dynamic range.  What I meant by "it's range is quite wide" was frequency range.  I neglected to label it, because it is so obvious in the graph -- that is fairly unreadable via the link. In addition to the obvious quasi-fundamental [it's not tuned in the conventional sense] the kick drum has a papery "smack" sound that may go all the way up to 16K Hz but only last a few milliseconds.  At 60 Hz, and even 51 Hz, it's still in La Scala II frequency range, where a single boom, as it fades to nothing (and is probably masked by other instruments as it gets softer), can last almost a second [800 ms].   A leading edge, at 60 Hz, can be almost 110 dB, and just a few ms long.

 

The following is probably copyrighted by Moulton Labs (although I could find no marks indicting that), so I want to give them credit.   Moulton Laboratories :: Principles of Multitrack Mixing: The Kick Drum  I heatedly recommend all of their mixing articles that are listed on Google.

 

The Kick Drum:

image.png.ba04da2fcfa7dfd943c60b68cf933b70.png

 

 

 

Yes, frequency range! I had several words wrong in that post, LOL. 

 

I was a pro/touring musician for about 10 years so I became very very familiar with the frequency and dynamic range of the kick drum during hours of tedious sound checks, LOL. Nothing like the sound of everything falling into place after 5 minutes of "boom.... boom... boom.... boom.... "

 

If you are a Luxman fan check this out! CL-40 Vacuum Tube Preamp, manufactured in Osaka in 1983. 

 

Sounds even better than it looks :)

CL-40-front-to-left.jpg

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On 7/31/2018 at 5:25 PM, JFHSQT said:

 

I am pretty excited though to be swapping out the RP-115SW with a new SVS SB-16 Ultra that is arriving tomorrow. I had concerns about the trouble people have been having with the 115SW amp reliability and didn't want to kick myself a year from now if I have trouble (while I am still in my return/exchange period).

 

 

Horn loaded mains mean horn loaded subs.  I had a pair of R 115 SWs with my LSIIs.  Man, was I happy when I got them sold!

 

I built myself a pair of Tuba HTs (Low profile version) and never looked back at a direct radiator to go along with La Scalas!

PICT0086.JPG

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9 hours ago, JFHSQT said:

Yes, frequency range! I had several words wrong in that post, LOL. 

 

That's part of the online human condition.  I mistakenly wrote "heatedly" instead of "heartily."  It is now corrected, I hope.   Everyone screws up.  One of the prize winners was the individual who wrote, "The impotence confuses me," instead of "The impedance confuses me."

 

I was an amateur percussionist in orchestras, bands and a dance band.   As you know, the kick sounds very different than the big bass drum used in orchestral music (especially the Telarc one!).  High overtones in the "smack" sound occur even in timpani beats.

 

 

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15 hours ago, garyrc said:

The following is probably copyrighted by Moulton Labs (although I could find no marks indicting that), so I want to give them credit.   Moulton Laboratories :: Principles of Multitrack Mixing: The Kick Drum  I heartily recommend all of their mixing articles that are listed on Google.

I don't think it is copyrighted @garyrc , he is stating very, very basic recording principles that have been set out on many, many books and guides on how critical recording, mastering, etc. is between the kick drum and electric bass.  

 

I especially liked his list of representative good examples of how to do it right:

 

Table listing examples of usage of kick drum and electric bass as described in the article

Artist Album Year Song Title Producer
The B-52's Cosmic Thing 1989 Cosmic Thing Nile Rogers
The Cars The Cars 1978 I'm in Touch with Your World Roy Thomas Baker
del Amitri Waking Hours 1989 Empty Hugh Jones
Dire Straits On Every Street 1991 Heavy Fuel Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits
Michael Jackson Dangerous 1992 Dangerous Teddy Riley and Michael Jackson
Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin III 1970 Since I've Been Loving You Jimmy Page
Annie Lennox Diva 1992 Money Can't Buy it Stephen Lipson
Bobby McFerrin many good examples      
Prince and the NPG Diamonds and Pearls 1991 Gett Off Prince and the NPG
Red Hot Chili Peppers Blood Sugar Sex Magik 1991 Funky Monks Rick Rubin
Seal Seal 1991 Killer Trevor Horn
Steely Dan Gaucho 1980 Hey Nineteen Gary Katz
Sting Soul Cages 1991 Mad About You Hugh Padgham and Sting
Tears for Fears The Seeds of Love 1989 Woman in Chains TFF and David Bascombe
Tina Turner Private Dancer 1984 What's Love Got to Do with It Terry Britten
XTC Nonsvch 1992 The Smartest Monkeys Gus Dudgeon

 

Many of those producers listed have extensive recording and mixing experience.

 

Travis

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45 minutes ago, dwilawyer said:

I don't think it is copyrighted @garyrc , he is stating very, very basic recording principles that have been set out on many, many books and guides on how critical recording, mastering, etc. is between the kick drum and electric bass.  

 

I especially liked his list of representative good examples of how to do it right:

 

Table listing examples of usage of kick drum and electric bass as described in the article

Artist Album Year Song Title Producer
The B-52's Cosmic Thing 1989 Cosmic Thing Nile Rogers
The Cars The Cars 1978 I'm in Touch with Your World Roy Thomas Baker
del Amitri Waking Hours 1989 Empty Hugh Jones
Dire Straits On Every Street 1991 Heavy Fuel Mark Knopfler and Dire Straits
Michael Jackson Dangerous 1992 Dangerous Teddy Riley and Michael Jackson
Led Zeppelin Led Zeppelin III 1970 Since I've Been Loving You Jimmy Page
Annie Lennox Diva 1992 Money Can't Buy it Stephen Lipson
Bobby McFerrin many good examples      
Prince and the NPG Diamonds and Pearls 1991 Gett Off Prince and the NPG
Red Hot Chili Peppers Blood Sugar Sex Magik 1991 Funky Monks Rick Rubin
Seal Seal 1991 Killer Trevor Horn
Steely Dan Gaucho 1980 Hey Nineteen Gary Katz
Sting Soul Cages 1991 Mad About You Hugh Padgham and Sting
Tears for Fears The Seeds of Love 1989 Woman in Chains TFF and David Bascombe
Tina Turner Private Dancer 1984 What's Love Got to Do with It Terry Britten
XTC Nonsvch 1992 The Smartest Monkeys Gus Dudgeon

 

The intro to "Woman in Chains" is one of the first songs I always play to test a system. Fantastic recording of kick and bass guitar, with percussive effects panning left and right.

 

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  Did play with crossover. Raised x over to 65 Hz and changed slopes from 12 dB on both to 6 dB on Sub and 18 dB /octave on LS ii. Seems to have helped a little with the issue I had with distorted tracks. Less annoying. 

  Put a few hours on them today. Definitely coming together. At maybe 25 hours now. Expect there will be more break in as the hours add up. 

  They sound better than I expected. Compared to the LS I heard in the past the sound has better layering and flatter frequency response. 

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