Improve on current built in home theater listening setup

[King Kong]

Our house came built with a home theater setup and it is leaving me less than satisfied.

I am no audio setup pro but I feel my left and right speakers are set too far apart and higher than I think it should be.

 

I'm accustomed to freestanding speakers in the past for more fine tuned listening as they're oriented towards the listening reference point at about ear level for the whole immersion feel which seems lacking with this.

 

Am I wrong to think this was improperly thought out and set up?

I'm not scared to cut holes so long as I have some guidance as to properly aiming and locating the speakers.

 

Speakers are midgrade Reference Series with a Denon AVR.

Room is 21'x17'

Lowest ceiling height is 8'

ideal viewing/listening position distance from screen is about 15'

LR speakers about 18' away ideal viewing/listening position

side speakers are midway of screen at  64" (middle of speaker)

L to R distance is  19.5'

LR speakers are 11 inches from center away from the wall edge

Ceing speakers are 44" away from edge of ceiling and 6' away from back wall.

[willland]

@King Kong.

 

Welcome to the forum.

 

2 hours ago, King Kong said:

I am no audio setup pro but I feel my left and right speakers are set too far apart and higher than I think it should be.

Well yes too far apart with the current projection screen but if you went to a 120"+ screen then it would be closer to ideal.  Based on the level the screen is currently mounted, the right/left front speakers are spot on midway up the screen.  With your sofa as close as it is to the screen, yes a bit on the high side for optimum sound projection.

 

What I do see that is a little off kilter is that the the the room should be turned 1/4 and the previous owner should have mounted with a retractable screen over the window and floated the sofa so side surrounds would be mounted slightly behind a listener's ears.  The way it is now, with the archway you have a huge blowout on the left side.

 

Very cute kid by the way.

 

Bill

[Chris A]

I believe this will help you in terms of loudspeaker placement:

 

[Chris A]

Some alternative surround sound loudspeaker placement configurations and their relative listening envelopment performance:

 

[King Kong]

Bill,

Now that you mention the orientation, I see it now. That would definitely give me more "room" to position the speakers.

This makes me want to go out and buy a new set of freestanding speakers.

For the archway, would creating a false wall or hang a curtain help?

 

Chris,

Those charts are really informative. It appears that the ideal setup is where the speakers are an equal distant from center of the listener.

Currently, the ceiling speakers seem useless but then again, I have not had the time to experiment with a good Atmos movie or soundtrack. I am much better off with a fine tuned 5.1 setup at this point it seems.

[Chris A]

Equidistant loudspeakers and more-or-less identical coverage vs. frequency for all five (5) surround loudspeakers will give you consistent direct and reflected acoustic energy in all channels (visualize the off-axis energy reflecting off the walls and returning the listening position).  This is important in order to maintain good timbre match all the way around the listener.  I wouldn't invest in bi-pole or dipole surrounds for that reason (they're usually too wide of coverage vis-à-vis the front three loudspeakers, and you will never timbre match those kind of surrounds with the fronts).  Having the same coverage on L, C, R and LR, RR loudspeakers will yield the greatest realism and seamless soundstage--and all about the same height off the floor (as shown in the first diagram, above). 

 

Chris

[King Kong]

This is the first I've heard of bipole and dipole speakers. Probably best to stick to what I'm familiar with right now. 

[King Kong]

What would yall recommend as a center channel speaker for this size of room? benefits of 4 woofers over 2 in the center channel? 

[Chris A]

Something that looks like the configuration of the left and right speakers (in other words, a third speaker is just like the other two across the front) is usually preferred--just like having matched stereo pairs of loudspeakers. Few people talk about this subject: matching phase across the front three loudspeakers.  This is something that has its own advantages. 

 

Having a fairly large amount of effective woofer or horn mouth area in the center loudspeaker is also something that few people talk about since they are almost always going the opposite direction (i.e., "how small can my center be?").  I've found through my own experiences that having more bass capability in the center is really important to the perception of deep bass in the room, especially if your listening position that is on the centerline of the room's left-right axis where the perceived bass is all coming from the "anti-nodes" of the room's modes.  In other words, more is usually better but not if the phase and polar coverage angles of the center loudspeaker differ significantly from the left and right channel loudspeakers.

 

Chris

[RoboKlipsch]

First I agree with you OP that the speakers are improperly placed.  Clearly the previous owner believed having speakers as wide as possible insures all seats are in the "zone".  Its a logical idea but misguided.

 

As you know, a speaker, especially Klipsch, has something directing the high frequencies typically a waveguide or horn.  The horn spreads sound up down left and right and does so with specific angles in mind.

 

There are some acoustic panels next to the fronts, a recognition to absorb early reflections but once speakers are poorly placed the absorption just improves it a little.

 

How much or whether to tow the speakers in at all fully depends upon the speaker, the room and the seating.

 

No doubt the fronts and backs are poorly placed.

 

Second, get the couch off the wall.   If you are up for turning the theater as suggested you have a much easier time placing the couch in the room.  But you would be covering the windows.   If you want to go this route lets discuss that as it changes everything.

 

Assuming you don't...couch off the wall.  More the better at least a few feet. Looks bad?  Fix that but don't compromise on seating position.  Its a big big compromise on a wall.

 

No matter what u do I suggest a 7.x.x system.  5.1 is fine but 7 1 is better and hardly complicated or difficult.  You would need perhaps one or 2 side surrounds on stands which would look fine.  Back surrounds are placed MUCH closer together than they are now.  Chris has diagrams for 7.1 also.  

 

Atmos is an option as long as you are making changes.  A whole additional conversation.

 

May sound crazy but DONT BUY ANYTHING yet!  Figure out your room and strategy then execute.  Selecting speakers is fun and easy when you know what u want exactly.  Believe it or not, the room setup is way more important than which speakers.

 

Flooratanding speaker could be used in any of your locations, or in wall or on wall.  All will look great in your room.

 

The previous owner valued aesthetics and knew what he knew but limited himself with speaker placement.  

 

My suggested plan:

1.  Determine what you and/or the family want the room to be.  Is appearance top priority or making it a perfect theater room?  

 

2.  What orientation will you use?  Facing the windows loses the windows, but if you really want a great theater dark is required.  You could add acoustic panels over the window wall and place any floorstanding speakers you want.  If u keep existing configuration that's fine too just need to decide.

 

3. Where will you sit?  Get off the walls.  I could explain for 20 more paragraphs 😨.  Dont do it.  

 

4.  5.1?  7.1?  Atmos?  Multiple subs, 1 sub?

 

5.  Will you treat the room any further (a few acoustic panels to help)?

 

6.  What speakers do you want and what do you need?  

 

Thats all 😈

[King Kong]

On ‎8‎/‎11‎/‎2018 at 1:08 PM, RoboKlipsch said:

My suggested plan:

1.  Determine what you and/or the family want the room to be.  Is appearance top priority or making it a perfect theater room?  

Wife is against switching the orientation. so current room orientation stays.
 

2.  What orientation will you use?  Facing the windows loses the windows, but if you really want a great theater dark is required.  You could add acoustic panels over the window wall and place any floorstanding speakers you want.  If u keep existing configuration that's fine too just need to decide.

Given the current config, do the windows really cause a noticeable difference in sound projection/quality? If so, what are remedies for the windows and big blowout archway on the left?

 

3. Where will you sit?  Get off the walls.  I could explain for 20 more paragraphs 😨.  Dont do it.  

center from screen towards back. Get off the walls. recommended minimum? 3ft?

 

4.  5.1?  7.1?  Atmos?  Multiple subs, 1 sub?

My current AVR (denon S920 blah blah) is can do 7.2 and 5.2.2 for atmos config I think. I currently have a g16 for the center from the living room and 2 subs (one is used in the living room)

 

5.  Will you treat the room any further (a few acoustic panels to help)?

Possibly. If I knew what else I need do

 

6.  What speakers do you want and what do you need?  

 a decent setup preferably second hand source, to save on cost. Usual consensus is bigger is better most of time apply here? Like getting a 8" woofers over 6"?

I found a few folks selling some locally craigslist and facebook.

 

Quote

Thats all 😈

 

Edited August 13, 2018 by King Kong

[RoboKlipsch]

Ok the info helps in pointing you towards your solution.

 

Seating position is critical.  Answering any questions about your room are guesses based upon best practices.  Measuring is easy and fun but time consuming and a step too far for many people.  But the caveat to any advice is that the only way to know whats best in any room is to measure.  Some pros can hear well enough to get close but I certainly can't.   So that said general principles --

 

The rule of thirds says split the dimension in 3 and sit on or close to the front or back third line.  In a large room this might mean sitting at the line about one third from the front wall.  In many rooms the back third is more appropriate.  Your screen size and viewing distances for optimal response should also be considered.   Adding room aesthetics to the equation the "best" starting point for the couch is roughly where the footrest is right now, about a third forward from the back wall.   The optimal seating range for your projector is very important too...I would ideally start the couch at a third from the back wall and then either leave it there or move it forward just to the point that its also in the ideal viewing distance for your screen size and resolution.

 

If you measured you would quickly find where the response is flattest while having very good bass response.  

 

Where the couch is allowed to be in the room will determine what you can set up with it and where to place it.  For example if you decide the couch has to be on the back wall creating a 7.2.x environment becomes very hard.  And good 5.2.x is hard to achieve on the back wall.  Once it is a few feet off the back wall there is some flexibility where because you can easily add some acoustic panels back there if you sit close to it(within a few feet).

 

Take some time to find where you can put the couch.  Listen to the existing front speakers as a rough guide for where it sounds better and worse and look and listen for the best placement.

 

Rob

[RoboKlipsch]

As far as the archway and windows, the best solution will be some absorption along the wall with the windows.  

The archway will create specific issues/needs in where you place your subs to balance the loss of bass out that side.

[garyrc]

If you are going to use in-wall speakers in the front, IMO it's best to have the grilles the same hue and shade as the wall.  That way, the audience may either not notice, or forget, where the speakers are, and that they are small.   One again, IMO, that helps psychologically with the imaging and the illusion that there is a soundtrack orchestra stretching across the wall, with depth behind the wall, or that the music has been blended with the moving image, making a whole that is greater than the sum of the parts.  Sometimes, what you hear -- or don't hear -- is what you see, or don't see.  Ampex demonstrated that once at a Hi Fi fair by having an acoustically transparent, but visually opaque curtain across a wall.  The source was an Ampex reel to reel tape deck.  Participants were asked to guess what speakers were behind the curtain.  A few people were probably aware that Ampex had charge of installing the magnificent 6 channel sound in 70 mm Todd-AO theaters a few years before, with JBL speakers (in fact, they may have been an exhibit there touting that fact -- I remember the exhibit, but I'm not sure where I saw it).  Anyway, in my group,  some people guessed that there were big JBLs, behind the curtain, others said Altec VOTT, one said Bozak Concert Grand, etc.  They were all BIG speakers.  Then they pulled back the curtain, and revealed the two small (for those days) speaker/amplifiers.

 

 

Before the revelation, I wondered, for a moment or two, if they had put a couple of their big, JBL, Todd-AO speakers behind the curtain, but I dismissed the idea, because they were a wee bit bigger.  In theaters, there were 5 of these behind the screen.

I believe the big horn loaded unit above was the Ampex/Jim Lansing 6000, for 70 mm theaters  The metal name plate above it (the 5050) was for a smaller horn for smaller theaters.

 

Sorry for drifting off-topic.

 

If you continue to sit at least 12 feet from the screen, and your projector will zoom far enough, you could have a larger, acoustically transparent (AT), screen with the center speaker, or perhaps all three front speakers, behind the screen at ear height.  We have a Seymour AT screen, 'scope shape (2.35:1) 130 inches wide and 55 inches high, 12 feet away from our couch.  It's sharp and clear, and the fabric weave doesn't show, even though it's AT.  If you have Audyssey, it will compensate for the 1 or 2 dB attenuation at 15K Hz.

[RoboKlipsch]

An AT screen would be amazing, and allows for any speaker choices and positioning  👀👂🤘

 

 

 

[King Kong]

Thanks for the input thus far! I'm going with leave the inwall where they are and use freestanding speakers. I lucked out and scored some RF-83s and picked up a RC-62II. Unfortunately I missed out on a RC-64 deal but the 62II will suffice for now. 

What are yalls input in regards to rear surround speakers? I was considering RF-82IIs for the rear surrounds since they match closer to the RF-83s up front.

Would it be worth looking into RS-52s or 62s for side surrounds? Only issue I see is maybe mounting the right speaker where the windows are.

 

AT is possible for me to do in the far future given that I have room to work with behind the screen wall since this upstairs in the attic space.

[King Kong]

[Max2]

That room is awesome and I can hear it screaming for a pair of Jubs for the fronts.

[King Kong]

11 minutes ago, Max2 said:

That room is awesome and I can hear it screaming for a pair of Jubs for the fronts.

 

A 3rd Jub for a center channel for movies? lol.

[K5SS]

Congratulations on the RF-83’s! Those are a true force to be reckoned with!