rplace Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 For my new Xilica 8080 I need the outputs to be Phoenix to Male RCA. I currently have two cables that are Male RCA to Male XLR. When I take the XLR end off I can see a small jumper run from the negative to the ground. That would be the end I'd be cutting off to use on the phoenix connection. Should I then follow these instructions for making a RCA to Phoenix? If not what should I do? Or should I keep my XLR male to RCA Male and just butcher a RCA Male/Male cable to use on the Phoenix connection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 The output of the Xilica is balanced impedance but there is NO SIGNAL on the minus output. It is just ground through an impedance that is equal to the plus output. Does your cable have 2 conductors or 3? The best way to wire this type of output to an unbalanced input (RCA) is using a 3 conductor cable (a twisted pair with a shield). The minus conductor of the twisted pair would then be connected at to the shield AT THE RCA connector along with the shield. This allows the inter chassis current to flow through the shield and not the signal conductor. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted July 30, 2018 Author Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 hour ago, babadono said: The output of the Xilica is balanced impedance but there is NO SIGNAL on the minus output. It is just ground through an impedance that is equal to the plus output. Does your cable have 2 conductors or 3? The best way to wire this type of output to an unbalanced input (RCA) is using a 3 conductor cable (a twisted pair with a shield). The minus conductor of the twisted pair would then be connected at to the shield AT THE RCA connector along with the shield. This allows the inter chassis current to flow through the shield and not the signal conductor. The cable I purchased a couple of weeks ago to go from my preamp to my Pro Crown amp is RCA Male to XLR Male. I used it to feed the crown to low frequency signal. Internally it looks to only have 2 wires running from the RCA end down to the XLR Male end. At the XLR end when you open it up there is a very short wire running from pin 1 to pin 3 connecting Ground and Negative. Fast forward a week or two, when I ordered the Xilica I ordered a bunch of XLR to XLR cables and am cutting them in half to make Phoenix to XLR connections as necessary be they Male or Female ended as appropriate. I'm pretty clear on all the ins/outs where phoenix/XLR is concerned 3 pins, 3 wires and -/+/G clearly labeled on the Xilica Phoenix connections. My HF amps are still consumer. So I need just two cables that are Phoenix to RCA running form Xilica Phoenix out, to Amp RCA in. My thought was to cut the XLR male ends off the first cable above and use it as Xilica outs to Amp Ins Right and Left for the HF amps. The end result for Xilica outputs should be 4 cables. 2 are LF Right and Left which are Phoenix to XLR Male going form Xilica to Crown. The other 2 are HF Right and Left which are Phoenix to RCA Male going form the Xilica to my SET Tube amps. Since I'd be cutting the XLR male ends off, seems to me it would be exactly like the video in my first post. Positive to + Ground to G and a jumper from G to - at the Phoenix. Any problems with that reasoning? If I did not have the RCA to XLR I'd be doing the same thing with an RCA cable no? Cutting off one end and putting the RCA Positive to + the RCA Ground to G and a jumper from G to - at the Phoenix. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted July 30, 2018 Author Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 hour ago, babadono said: The output of the Xilica is balanced impedance but there is NO SIGNAL on the minus output. It is just ground through an impedance that is equal to the plus output. Does your cable have 2 conductors or 3? The best way to wire this type of output to an unbalanced input (RCA) is using a 3 conductor cable (a twisted pair with a shield). The minus conductor of the twisted pair would then be connected at to the shield AT THE RCA connector along with the shield. This allows the inter chassis current to flow through the shield and not the signal conductor. So I've reread your post a few times and googled twisted pair with shield. Are you saying to get a wire like below and make the phoenix end like normal +/-/G and at the RCA end solder up the + to + and the - and Ground to the "other" part of the RCA? I must admit I've never made my own RCA or soldered one. Guessing there are two places for wires to attach on an RCA and it will be obvious which is which with some searching. So normal Phoenix end with home made RCA connection? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 1 hour ago, rplace said: So I've reread your post a few times and googled twisted pair with shield. Are you saying to get a wire like below and make the phoenix end like normal +/-/G and at the RCA end solder up the + to + and the - and Ground to the "other" part of the RCA? I must admit I've never made my own RCA or soldered one. Guessing there are two places for wires to attach on an RCA and it will be obvious which is which with some searching. So normal Phoenix end with home made RCA connection? Yes. Or order some of these in the length needed. Lop off (or un solder)the XLR end. Use the resulting bare wires into the phoenix connectors: https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=115&cp_id=11509&cs_id=1150902&p_id=4777&seq=1&format=2 You will see from their wiring diagram the proper way to wire RCA connector to a balanced cable Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted July 30, 2018 Author Share Posted July 30, 2018 10 minutes ago, babadono said: Yes. Or order some of these in the length needed. Lop off (or un solder)the XLR end. Use the resulting bare wires into the phoenix connectors: https://www.monoprice.com/product?c_id=115&cp_id=11509&cs_id=1150902&p_id=4777&seq=1&format=2 Now I'm confused again. That is what I already have. A cable with a RCA male on one end and a XLR on the other. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted July 30, 2018 Share Posted July 30, 2018 20 minutes ago, rplace said: Now I'm confused again. That is what I already have. A cable with a RCA male on one end and a XLR on the other. If the RCA end is wired properly you're good to go. But I thought you said the RCA to XLR is only 2 conductor. Is it 2 conductor PLUS shield? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 15 hours ago, babadono said: If the RCA end is wired properly you're good to go. But I thought you said the RCA to XLR is only 2 conductor. Is it 2 conductor PLUS shield? After a bit of digging and a lot of reading it seems to me there are two way to accomplish this. However, I'd like some confirmation. If I'm right and you have a cable with 3 wires then you connect it as @babadono suggests with the 3 wires at the XLR end connected exactly as you would expect and at the RCA end you put the negative and ground both to the "Shield" or non-positive part of the RCA tip. If you have a 2 wire cable like cutting the end of a standard RCA you put a short wire or jumper between the ground and negative at the XLR end. I've not come upon anything that suggests one is better or correct. Should note that this seems to be for when you are going from unbalanced equipment to balanced equipment like in my case of a consumer preamp to the Xilica. I'm seeing different approaches for going the other direction as in a balanced device to a non balanced device such as would be the case when going from the Xilica to a consumer amp. Thoughts? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 Is this what you need? At $28 for a 3m cable it's expensive. https://www.amazon.com/Atlas-Sound-AS2RCA-3M-PHX-Phoenix-Connector/dp/B009RUAA1I/ref=sr_1_1?s=musical-instruments&ie=UTF8&qid=1533042844&sr=1-1&keywords=phoenix+to+RCA Or this adapter for $10? https://www.amazon.com/Comprehensive-XLR-Female-Phoenix-Connector/dp/B00466UJ9G/ref=sr_1_cc_1?s=aps&ie=UTF8&qid=1533043095&sr=1-1-catcorr&keywords=phoenix+to+XLR+female I reviewed the Crutchfield video in Post #1 of this thread. That seems like the cheapest way to go, and it doesn't look hard. Just make sure you know which wire is which. BTW I have the same cable you do, the RCA to XLR M-M. I bought mine from Monoprice as well because I did not want to make my own terminations and I didn't know exactly which wire to use. My RCA-XLR is being used for the Sub-out on my consumer AVR to the XLR of an Inuke 3000 w/dsp for use with a DIY Umax 15 sub. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 40 minutes ago, rplace said: Thoughts? If you look closely at the diagrams you provided, both methods are doing exactly the same thing. You're running wire 1 and wire 3 parallel. The only difference is where they're joined together. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, CECAA850 said: If you look closely at the diagrams you provided, both methods are doing exactly the same thing. You're running wire 1 and wire 3 parallel. The only difference is where they're joined together. That is exactly what I thought. While I am not an electrical engineer It seems to me electrons/signal/voodoo/whatever is traveling the length of one wire and being joined at the other end. It also seemed to me that it was a matter of what cable you had on hand to start with. If there are 3 wires, 2-conductor and shielded it seems is the proper term, you join them at the RCA end. If you have 2 wires (single conductor + shielded) you join them at the XLR end. No matter the case it seems the positive is always a straight shot from one positive end to the other. I fully expect to run into some noise issues along the way until I can get everything sorted or maybe even buy different equipment that is all balanced. What I'm really wanting to know is can I damage anything in the process? I'm reasonably handy guessing I can solder some wires but I'd just like to be sure I can ruin anything in the process. I've got an email out to the xilica team but nothing back so far. I've had the XP 8080 for a week now and itching to do something with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CECAA850 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 5 minutes ago, rplace said: I'd just like to be sure I can ruin anything in the process. I suppose if you accidentally shorted pin 2 to either 1 or 3 you might but otherwise I wouldn't think so. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 18 minutes ago, rplace said: I fully expect to run into some noise issues along the way until I can get everything sorted I think you are having paralysis by analysis. I can say that because I tend to do the exact same thing! BTW my Monprice RCA-XLR produced NO noise whatsoever. It was plug and play. I procrastinated for weeks when I needed my RCA-XLR cable while reading and doing research. What terminal ends? What wire? What kind, what size? I finally just ordered the proper pre-built cable from Monoprice and I'm glad I did because it got me unstuck. In your case you already have the proper cable with an RCA connector on one end. If you have the Phoenix connector in-hand it is a screw-on type and therefore easy to terminate. Connect all three wires from your existing cable to the Phoenix. Then the only thing you need to do which is out of the ordinary is jumper 1 & 3 together and I think you are good to go. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 8 minutes ago, wvu80 said: I think you are having paralysis by analysis. I can say that because I tend to do the exact same thing! For sure that is part of the problem, but never having done it before you just want a few more people to confirm your thoughts. The cables you showed won't really help me because I'd just have to cut that phoenix connector off. The unit I have has three blocks of 4 groups each having a +/-/G so you take the nifty block out from the back, attach up to 4 inputs with 3 wires each and 8 outputs also with 3 wires each then shove them all back in. Not exactly but something similar to this. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wvu80 Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 1 minute ago, rplace said: The cables you showed won't really help me because I'd just have to cut that phoenix connector off. Ah, I see what you mean. I have never worked with a Phoenix connector before so when I Googled it I just assumed they were all the same. Obviously not. In that case I think your idea to contact Xilica people directly is the most correct one. If you can't get an email reply then do things old school and give them a call. I can't believe you are the first person ever who is trying to do what you want to do. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 23 minutes ago, wvu80 said: I can't believe you are the first person ever who is trying to do what you want to do. No, surely not. @babadono I'm sure has given me some great advice. @Chris A is also an Xilica king as is @mark1101. Guessing it is summer time and everyone is busy enjoying the sun. I swore to myself this would be a fall project, yet here I am. Hopefully they chime in soon. I think you and @CECAA850 have calmed my fears about frying my expensive new piece of gear. I've got the input now wired up as well as the XLR to XLR output for the low end. One more output for the HF amps and I'll give it a go. Maybe this afternoon evening. Gotta pay the bills right now. Here is some additional info for anyone interested. Pretty detailed in fig 3 for just about any connection to any other connection https://www.rane.com/note110.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, rplace said: After a bit of digging and a lot of reading it seems to me there are two way to accomplish this. However, I'd like some confirmation. If I'm right and you have a cable with 3 wires then you connect it as @babadono suggests with the 3 wires at the XLR end connected exactly as you would expect and at the RCA end you put the negative and ground both to the "Shield" or non-positive part of the RCA tip. If you have a 2 wire cable like cutting the end of a standard RCA you put a short wire or jumper between the ground and negative at the XLR end. I've not come upon anything that suggests one is better or correct. Should note that this seems to be for when you are going from unbalanced equipment to balanced equipment like in my case of a consumer preamp to the Xilica. I'm seeing different approaches for going the other direction as in a balanced device to a non balanced device such as would be the case when going from the Xilica to a consumer amp. Thoughts? You must think in terms of where the chassis currents and signal currents will flow. These two arrangements are NOT the same. The diagram does not explicitly show that the black wire is a shield. In the 3 conductor cable the chassis current on pin 1 of the XLR will flow on a separate conductor(the shield) all the way down the cable until it gets to the RCA connector where it will tie to the chassis of the unbalanced equipment. The signal ground current on pin 3 of the XLR will flow through the blue wire of the twisted pair until it gets to the RCA connector where it connects to the same point as the shield, because in unbalanced equipment the signal ground and chassis ground are the same point. In the 2 conductor cable with pins 1 and 3 of the XLR jumpered together the chassis and signal ground currents flow in the same conductor(most likely a shield). This can cause Common Impedance Coupling(CIC). The 2 conductor arrangement is used all the time but is not optimal. Someone may use it satisfactorily for years and then they add a component to their system or just move their system and start having problems because the chassis ground current couples a signal onto the signal ground and the unbalanced equipment has no mechanism to discriminate between wanted and unwanted signals. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 2 hours ago, CECAA850 said: If you look closely at the diagrams you provided, both methods are doing exactly the same thing. You're running wire 1 and wire 3 parallel. The only difference is where they're joined together. Exactly the same thing? Well not exactly. They are NOT the same. An ohm meter will tell you they are the same, but they are not. You must think in terms of where the currents will flow. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
babadono Posted July 31, 2018 Share Posted July 31, 2018 For your reading pleasure: https://centralindianaaes.files.wordpress.com/2012/09/indy-aes-2012-seminar-w-notes-v1-0.pdf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rplace Posted July 31, 2018 Author Share Posted July 31, 2018 Starting to see the light @babadono Yesterday I did not have the vocabulary you did and was confused about "Shield". To me they are all wires. This does a pretty good job of explaining that when you are going form unbalanced output to balanced input both ways in the picture posted will work but the one with the shield and 2 wires is better. https://www.presonus.com/learn/technical-articles/Balanced-Unbalanced I'm going to order some RCA ends that I can solder up and just cut both ends off some of my XLR cables I ordered to have the 2-wire + shield on my input side for the long term. Still might give it a go with my simple dual ended RCA cables with one clipped off and a jumper at the Xilica side. As for the Balanced to Unbalanced as I move from the Xilica to amps I'm still trying to figure that one out. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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