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Should I fulfull my lifelong dream to own Klipsch speakers?


elee532

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Hope I'm in the right thread and just have a question, LaScala based.  Mine are 84 models and I want to try adding a sub to enhance the bass.  The scalas are about 15 ft apart and do I need 1 sub or 2?   Where would the best spot to place them, or it?    Thanks very much!  :)    Also, do I need a powered sub or passive?

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On 8/12/2018 at 7:45 PM, garyrc said:

Klipsch speakers [especially La Scalas and Khorns] are so efficient, that Audyssey may set them at a trim of -12 dB, the limit, and you won't know whether it would have set them even lower, if it could.  There are a couple of ways around that, so let me know if that happens to you, and I'll help.

 

 

Hi @GaryC,

 

I finally got my LaScalas set up and just ran Audyssey for the first time. It did as you suggested it might and set the trim at -12 dB for each. Can you help?

 

Thanks!

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6 hours ago, elee532 said:

 

Hi @GaryC,

 

I finally got my LaScalas set up and just ran Audyssey for the first time. It did as you suggested it might and set the trim at -12 dB for each. Can you help?

 

Thanks!

 

Please read everything before doing anything.

 

As you know, the reason -12 dB won't work, is that we don't know if Audyssey would turn it down even farther, if it could.   When I completed the routine, and did the math, I found that  Audyssey would have turned down my Left Front 2 dB farther and Right Front 2.5 dB farther down, bringing them (on the trim screen) to LF = - 14 dB and RF= -14.5 dB.  Parenthetically, I think this means that Audyssey thinks that the combination of any efficiency differences in my two Klipschorns plus any asymmetry in my room amounts to only 0.5 dB, as heard from listening position!  Since La Scalas and Khorns have the same rated sensitivities (105 dB, 2.83v, 1M) within their respective bandwidths, and they use the same drivers and mid and high horns, Audyssey should produce similar, but not identical results for you.  Why not identical?   I think my room is a bit bigger (but you have openings to the side), and I think you, and therefore your Audyssey mics, may sit a little closer.

 

You are still using separate power amplification, right?

 

The trim level settings, correct or not, whether done by Audyssey or you, do NOT affect the EQ or time domain correction Audyssey provides.  But you will want the levels right.

 

One Way:  (The one I used; will only work with separates, or with a receiver with processor loops) 

 

1) Buy one 12 dB attenuator for each channel you are running, including the subwoofer.  Places like Parts Express carry these, they are not expensive, but PE's were badly mislabeled in 2011; hopefully they will have fixed that by now.

 

2) My dealer recommended testing each attenuator by running pink noise through each, and into the power amp, to make sure they each cut by 12 dB, according to an SPL meter ("C" weight).  I know you know this, but in the name of CAUTION: make sure the power amp (and everything else for that matter) is turned OFF before plugging or unplugging an attenuator, interconnect cable, or any other equipment.  With speakers as efficient as La Scalas and amps as powerful as you have, there might be nothing but a crater left. 

 

3) Run Audyssey.  Use all 8 mic positions.

 

4) Look at the results to make sure they are reasonable.

 

5) Turn everything off!   Remove all attenuators.

 

6) Chris K., co founder and CTO of Audyssey confirmed this part.  Your Reference Level, on the Main Volume Control will now be

- 12, not 0.  If you have used 12 dB attenuators during the calibration/set-up, as you should, at - 12 you will get the same SPL other people would get at 0, in dB.  That is terrifically loud with most movies.  Reference Level is that setting of the MVC that will produce full-scale, maximum level very brief peaks of 105 dB through each regular speaker, and 115 dB through the subwoofer, when playing Blu-ray movies.  Old fashioned DVDs may be a little softer.  This doesn't apply to music discs, because of a lack of agreement and an excess of horsing around by the recorded music industry.  And even with movies, some filmmakers &/or BD mixers cheat a bit with compression or limiting, reducing the dynamic range and increasing the recording level, just like the music industry in their "loudness wars."  Also, Reference Level in dB, although the number of dB at peaks is specified, may sound louder in the home, because loudness, being a perceptual phenomenon, not a physical one, does not strictly correspond to dB SPL.  Our brains mistake a mass of early reflections (as opposed to later reflections one might get in a movie theater) for increased SPL.  To fix that, THX recommends operating at 7 dB below Reference if you have a room between 1,500 and 4,999 cu.ft., and 9 dB below reference if your room is less than 1,499 cu. ft.  I don't know what to do about your partly open room sides.

 

The one fly in the ointment with this attenuator method is that if you must use DEQ, it throws it off by 12 dB.  To some of us, that is no loss, because, to us, DEQ is muddy, especially after luxuriating in the clarity of a La Scala, Belle or Khorn.  Watch out; in some AVR/AVPs DEQ is a default setting.  When someone does not use DEQ, bass controls become usable, and will show up on the menu.  Most people using the attenuator method turn up their bass controls, do not turn up their treble controls (which also appear when DEQ is off) and also turn up their sub a little, only AFTER running Audyssey (or Audyssey will turn the sub right back down again).  The Deciders, in their infinite wisdom, made the tone controls on most AVPs and AVRs affect the LF and RF speakers only (perhaps to keep the average HT owner from blowing their delicate center channel to smithereens), but it still works well in helping the LF and RF bass rise to meet a slightly boosted sub. 

 

Another option, for those who really want to use DEQ :wacko2:is to leave the attenuators on.  But that makes many purists nervous.  In a way, this may seem to knock your La Scalas down to the efficiency of just slightly efficient speakers, and any others even lower.  In the important way it does not.  The head room provided by your separate power amps will remain as outstanding as ever, because they are beyond ... downstream of ... the attenuators..

 

Another way:

 

1) Let Audyssey set everything

 

2) Correct the SPL of each speaker by using an SPL meter, and adjusting the trims.  Do NOT use the noise signal ("tone") in your AVP (pre-pro) or AVR !  The Deciders made it so that this signal does not go through Audyssey, so if Audyssey makes a big correction in the frequency response of a given channel, say, cuts a big peak, the test noise won't have that correction, so, everything else being equal, you may adjust that channel to the wrong level.  Use a Test Disk -- then the signal will go through Audyssey, and the entire chain -- then adjust each channel until the SPL meter ("C" weight) says they are equal, from the Main Listening Position.    Most disks, included the Spears disk, use the industry custom of having the pink noise band-limited to 500 to 2K Hz.  The Spears disc gives you a separate signal for the Subwoofer.   Audyssey uses its "pings."

______________________________________

 

Almost all Audyssey users turn up the subwoofer after running Audyssey.   With many AVRs, AVPs, etc., the line driver for the subwoofer output may distort or clip if the trim is turned up as high as 0, -3, or even -5.  That's why sage advice is to turn the gain control on the sub way up before running Audyssey, so that Audyssey ends up setting the trim to about - 11.5 (but not - 12);  then the trim on the AVR/ AVP can be manually turned up as far as -5 (for a deep bass boost of 6.5 dB)

 

Take some time and read the following when you get a chance.  Or, better yet, before you run Audyssey.  It's long, but very, very clear (as opposed to any pre-pro manual I've seen). 

Audyssey FAQ Linked Here


 

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Thanks for that detailed explanation @GaryC

 

Is this the type of attenuator you were referring to: https://www.parts-express.com/harrison-labs-12-db-rca-line-level-audio-attenuator-pair--266-244. And I would need 6 pairs of these (2 fronts, 2 rears, 2 subs)?

 

What, if any, is the advantage to option #1 vs #2? I pretty much blew my budget on the LaScalas, so option #2 is definitely more appealing than option #1.

 

Also, pardon my ignorance but what is DEQ?

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19 hours ago, elee532 said:

Thanks for that detailed explanation @GaryC

 

Is this the type of attenuator you were referring to: https://www.parts-express.com/harrison-labs-12-db-rca-line-level-audio-attenuator-pair--266-244. And I would need 6 pairs of these (2 fronts, 2 rears, 2 subs)?

 

What, if any, is the advantage to option #1 vs #2? I pretty much blew my budget on the LaScalas, so option #2 is definitely more appealing than option #1.

 

Also, pardon my ignorance but what is DEQ?

 

That's the type.

 

I believe, in order to get Audyssey to test and adjust SPL levels for each channel, including a center channel, as in option 1, you would need 7 individual attenuators (if you buy them in pairs, 4 pairs, for 7 you will use, and 1 you will use for decoration somewhere in the house, or give to Goodwill), all 7 to be used at the same time, because Audyssey waits for no man.

 

Option 1 was advocated online, by people who should know, in 2011, and I bought into it.  Notice I said people who should know.  It wasn't discussed much, because very few people have speakers as efficient (sensitive) as La Scalas, Khorns, Belles or Jubilees (the typical speaker is about 15 dB [!!] less efficient).  Now that I'm old and calloused brained I need to think it through again.  I've learned more about Audyssey in the past 7 years, and just as I was reading your question, it occurred to me that option 1 might not be necessary, given that so many people change their SPL settings at will after calibration (especially the trim on the AVR or pre-pro servicing the subwoofer output).  It could be iffy, and a sticky wicket.  So, let's use LBJ's favorite Bible quote, "let us reason together."

  • Using Option 2, what do you do if you initially got a reading of -12, which you did, and Audyssey would have set it even lower if it could?  How do you turn it down?  No problem with the subwoofer, you turn down the gain knob on the sub itself, but on the other speakers, where's the knob?    If your multichannel power amp has an input sensitivity control, you could try turning that down, and hope it has enough range (I'd guess it does), then run Audyssey again.  But how about the old saw that your power amp's sensitivity setting has one and only one magical place that it sounds best?  I fooled with that knob on my old McIntosh over and over again, matching the SPL over and over again by varying the pre-amp volume to compensate for my fooling with the input sensitivity and never reached a conclusion, but the golden eared Hi-Enders were sure, so waves of OCD swept over me.  If you don't have an input sensitivity control, then what?  The main task is to get each of your main speakers to produce the same SPL when given the same input, as measured by a good SPL meter, C weight at the Main Listening Position.  You must use a test disk to provide the pink noise, because the noise from your pre-pro doesn't go through Audyssey.  A big mistake on their part, IMHO.  The signal from a test disk will go through Audyssey.  In some rooms, with some speakers, it doesn't make a lot of difference -- but in others it does.  That's what you paid for. You will have to play with a variety of controls.  If the actual disparity in efficiency between your speakers is too great (how sensitive are those surrounds?), would you have to go to Option 1 ??  I'm too addlepated right now to know.  Probably caffeine deprivation.  Section e6 of this Audyssey FAQ Linked Here might help you.
  • Another issue is the range of the pink noise, v.s. the other tones that can be used to set levels.  Almost all, or all, test disks use the industry standard Band Limited Pink Noise, 500 Hz to 2K Hz, i.e. a piece of the midrange.  Fine.  Audyssey uses its "pings" or "chirps" which range from 20 to 20 K Hz (even though they definitely do not sound like they do, Audyssey swears up and down that they do).  The question is, do they use all of those chirps to set the levels of the various speakers, or do they  use them all in only Audyssey's forte, EQ and Time Domain adjustments?  They may well be using a greater range than 500 to 2K, because Audyssey has often been praised for the sophistication of its level setting.   Maybe someone put the answer in Audyssey FAQ Linked Here since I last read it.  And what method is desirable? :wacko2:
  • Either way, what happens if the finished set-up doesn't sound equal from the sweet spot?   Use test noise.  Every once in a while there is a movie or piece of music that sounds like it consistently favors one side or the other.  Don't let this drive you crazy.  Too late for some of us.  If the test disk doesn't sound equal, first make sure it isn't your ears.  Stand facing the speakers, move your head around a little and see if the pink noise seems to be louder toward one side of the room, say the south side.  Then turn around and try standing with your back to the speakers, and move your head around a bit.  If the sound now sounds louder from the north side, you know what to conclude.   Other members of your family would doubtless like to go through the same procedure.  Just in case, check for ear wax.  Your  otolaryngologist can take it out safely.

 

If, after living with Audyssey for while, if you think the sound can be improved, there are always these, but you'll have to run Audyssey again, after you set them up.image.png.6e66dc863891fbc829d9ad16403d87bd.pngimage.png.5b29637f7c1e084879cb79ce367c7a98.png

image.png.47193a5bf683565225f2bfb571ea02a6.png

 

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No input sensitivitcontrol on my amp. But I do have a test disk and SPL meter handy so I’m going to mess around with that tomorrow.

 

FYI, the Audyssey FAQ describes the same two options you did. It doesn’t really seem to recommend one or the other.

 

BTW, after my first run of Audyssey + pulling out a few absorption panels things are already sounding much better - even without yet getting speaker levels fixed. Where it was sounding like the music was coming from two different speakers, I now have a soundstage that had me thinking I had a center channel again. 

 

Forward progresss!

 

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