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Beatles Sound Terrible on My Fortes


Mark51

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Still working on getting my Fortes set up right.  I picked them up on CL only about a week ago.  I'm finding that stuff that is well recorded sounds marvelous, especially small jazz ensembles.  But Beatles recordings, with a few exceptions, sound terribly bright.  John Lennon's voice sounds like he's on a telephone.  I realize these recordings were made 50 years ago and may have been equalized to make the vocals sound right on AM radio.  I'm using an NAD T-743 A/V receiver for amplification, since they are part of a home theater setup.  I know - its an AV receiver but this thing weighs over 30 pounds so at least must have a serious power supply.  I'm streaming from Tidal.  Speakers are in the corners about 11 feet apart and about the same distance from the listening position.  Towed in so they crossover just in front of the listening position.  I have yet to do any upgrades like replacing the caps.  Any observations?  

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Still working on getting my Fortes set up right.  I picked them up on CL only about a week ago.  I'm finding that stuff that is well recorded sounds marvelous, especially small jazz ensembles.  But Beatles recordings, with a few exceptions, sound terribly bright.  John Lennon's voice sounds like he's on a telephone.  I realize these recordings were made 50 years ago and may have been equalized to make the vocals sound right on AM radio.  I'm using an NAD T-743 A/V receiver for amplification, since they are part of a home theater setup.  I know - its an AV receiver but this thing weighs over 30 pounds so at least must have a serious power supply.  I'm streaming from Tidal.  Speakers are in the corners about 11 feet apart and about the same distance from the listening position.  Towed in so they crossover just in front of the listening position.  I have yet to do any upgrades like replacing the caps.  Any observations?  

Specifically what albums?


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4 minutes ago, Mark51 said:

Still working on getting my Fortes set up right.  I picked them up on CL only about a week ago.  I'm finding that stuff that is well recorded sounds marvelous.  But Beatles recordings, with a few exceptions, sound terribly bright.  John Lennon's voice sounds like he's on a telephone.  I realize these recordings were made 50 years ago and may have been equalized to make the vocals sound right on AM radio.  I'm using an NAD


I'm sure you are correct. I've noticed a lot of 60's recorded stuff seems like it was band limited to sound the best on those little "transistor radios" we had! My father had an Invicta "transistor radio", ooh ooh! :-)

Of course he also had a VERY good home radio/record player and mono speaker, an Altec Lansing 15" studio monitor powered by a 20 watt McIntosh Mono TUBE AMP and a McIntosh Tube Preamp too! Pickering cartridge on a 100% manual turntable. Wish I had that stuff today but it's all long gone. 😞

John Kuthe...

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I'm sure you are correct. I've noticed a lot of 60's recorded stuff seems like it was band limited to sound the best on those little "transistor radios" we had! My father had an Invicta "transistor radio", ooh ooh! :-)

Of course he also had a VERY good home radio/record player and mono speaker, an Altec Lansing 15" studio monitor powered by a 20 watt McIntosh Mono TUBE AMP and a McIntosh Tube Preamp too! Pickering cartridge on a 100% manual turntable. Wish I had that stuff today but it's all long gone. [emoji20]

John Kuthe...

My BEATles CDs sound amazing. Even the first four which are mono. Sound like they are in the room.


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John Lennon did occasionally sound like his voice was coming through a telephone.  Artist's prerogative.

 

Their first few albums sounded pretty midrange-ish.

 

What speakers did you have before Fortes?  Did they have midrange horns?  Are your current ones Forte I, II, or III?

 

There were plenty of records of the '60s that were well recorded.  Some, like Sgt. Pepper, were fine on vinyl with a good phono cartridge (Ortofon moving coil!), but were bad on CD.  I don't know what the new remastered one is like.  Hopefully it is an SACD.

 

Klipsch speakers are very revealing.  They reveal good and bad aspects of a recording.  Really good recordings sound really good.  This is most true of the fully horn loaded ones (Jubilee, Klipschorn, La Scala I and II, and Belle Klipsch), then Forte and Chorus a little less so. 

 

I think it's likely that your Fortes are positioned correctly where you have them, but make sure there is at least an area rug on the floor at the point that the sound from the speaker will bounce off the floor and go to your ears.   Other room treatments might help.  Try manipulating the tone controls, if you have them.

 

The original Fortes got one of the best reviews in the history of Stereo Review, in 1986.

 

image.thumb.png.3146ec44af5bb3feffeffb470ddfde67.png

 

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If they are Forte I s you may need to tighten all the horn screws. Rebuild the crossover caps. Check all the connections on the crossover. If they have screw on horn drivers there is a gasket on the mid range and the driver could be loose. 

But it could also just be bad recording poorly set up turntable if thats what your using.

I think toed in crossing over just behind the ears s a preferred position. If the speakers are on a hard smooth surface I would also recommend furniture grippers on them.

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6 hours ago, Mark51 said:

But Beatles recordings, with a few exceptions, sound terribly bright.

There is a reason why Beatles albums don't sound very good on loudspeakers that are anywhere near accurate in terms of their frequency response, such as Fortes.  Here is a demastering curve for Sgt. Peppers Lonely Hearts Club Band (the song):

 

300287456_Sgt.Pepperdemasteringcurve.JPG.56740777edfe235ae677c9050a13e838.JPG

 

If you applied this curve to your preamp while playing this Beatles song, you wouldn't be complaining about the brightness.  All the other Beatles songs have their own unique demastering curves, but in general they have boosted highs and attenuated lows.  That's not a fault of the loudspeakers but rather the recordings--or rather what the record company did to the recordings.

 

Chris

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Also, since the Fortes use collapsing polar midrange horns (a.k.a, a "pattern flip" midrange horn), they will need extra absorption on the floor out to at least 3 feet from the front face of each loudspeaker and to their sides.  Recommend thicker floor covering and perhaps some absorption on the front and side walls if they're close to the walls.  The same 2-3 feet depth of absorption is recommended.  This will mediate any extra nearfield reflections that tend to distort the timbre of the Fortes toward brightness.

 

Chris

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Sgt Peppers and White on original pressings sounded good.  With any Klipsch speaker, care in system matching and room treatment is a requirement.

 

Actual best Beatles sound I heard was on a VHS, when they came out with I believe "The Beatles" documentary.  Started sounding like old mono record then cut into remastered stereo at the beginning.  Nice, warm, and cozy (if you can say that about their music and sound).

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I demastered all the Beatles albums that I own because they sounded pretty awful on the dialed-in Jubs.  They sound much better now, in fact some of them sound pretty amazing considering what they were recorded with.  Early Beatles albums generally sound worse than later albums.

 

Beatles albums in my FLAC library:

  • 1962-1966 (disc 1); 1962-1966 (disc 2): DR Database ratings: 11, 12
  • 1967-1970 (disc 1); 1967-1970 (disc 2): DR Database ratings 11, 11
  • Past Masters - Volume One;  DR Database rating 12
  • Past Masters · Volume Two; DR Database rating 10
  • Revolver [2009 Stereo Remaster]; DR Database rating 10
  • Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band; DR Database rating 12
  • White Album (disc 1); White Album (disc 2) DR Database ratings 12, 12
  • Abbey Road: DR database rating 10

Generally, the higher the DR Database rating, the better they sound.

 

Chris

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4 hours ago, garyrc said:

John Lennon did occasionally sound like his voice was coming through a telephone.  Artist's prerogative.

 

Their first few albums sounded pretty midrange-ish.

 

What speakers did you have before Fortes?  Did they have midrange horns?  Are your current ones Forte I, II, or III?

 

There were plenty of records of the '60s that were well recorded.  Some, like Sgt. Pepper, were fine on vinyl with a good phono cartridge (Ortofon moving coil!), but were bad on CD.  I don't know what the new remastered one is like.  Hopefully it is an SACD.

 

Klipsch speakers are very revealing.  They reveal good and bad aspects of a recording.  Really good recordings sound really good.  This is most true of the fully horn loaded ones (Jubilee, Klipschorn, La Scala I and II, and Belle Klipsch), then Forte and Chorus a little less so. 

 

I think it's likely that your Fortes are positioned correctly where you have them, but make sure there is at least an area rug on the floor at the point that the sound from the speaker will bounce off the floor and go to your ears.   Other room treatments might help.  Try manipulating the tone controls, if you have them.

 

The original Fortes got one of the best reviews in the history of Stereo Review, in 1986.

 

image.thumb.png.3146ec44af5bb3feffeffb470ddfde67.png

 

Been listening to Mission bookshelf speakers up till now.  Never owned Klipsch.  These are original Fortes.

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12 minutes ago, Chris A said:

I demastered all the Beatles albums that I own because they sounded pretty awful on the dialed-in Jubs.  They sound much better now, in fact some of them sound pretty amazing considering what they were recorded with.  Early Beatles albums generally sound worse than later albums.

 

Beatles albums in my FLAC library:

  • 1962-1966 (disc 1); 1962-1966 (disc 2): DR Database ratings: 11, 12
  • 1967-1970 (disc 1); 1967-1970 (disc 2): DR Database ratings 11, 11
  • Past Masters - Volume One;  DR Database rating 12
  • Past Masters · Volume Two; DR Database rating 10
  • Revolver [2009 Stereo Remaster]; DR Database rating 10
  • Sgt. Pepper's Lonely Hearts Club Band; DR Database rating 12
  • White Album (disc 1); White Album (disc 2) DR Database ratings 12, 12
  • Abbey Road: DR database rating 10

Generally, the higher the DR Database rating, the better they sound.

 

Chris

Chris what do you mean by dailed in Jubs?

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Most Jubilee owners use DSP crossovers to cross the bass bin with the HF compression driver/K-402 horn, and flatten response.  I use REW to measure in-room and use a Xilica XP-8080 crossover to handle the crossovers of the front three loudspeakers and EQ my entire 5.1 array.  Here are some measurements (and the zoomed in scale resolution is important to note in the each case).  These Jubilees use TAD TD-4002 compression drivers:

 

1773833051_Jubswith18dB-octBesselXovernewPEQsSPLandphase.thumb.jpg.ff202bd0b9debdc3463466cdafa0f36a.jpg

 

Jubs with 18 dB-oct Bessel Xover new PEQs spectrogram.jpg

 

2053610301_Jubilee-TADStepResponseBessel18xover.thumb.jpg.fed5f18bf3b2c81319e70d6d6838d5a9.jpg

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Just a couple of observations.  I've never been a Beatles fan, but am a fan of both John Lennon and George Harrison (just found a great Concert for Bangladesh box of Vinyl).  I have Forte III's now, but a friend has original Forte I's with new caps and the titanium tweet.  He uninstalled the Titanium because he didn't like the sound.  Those Forte's sound just amazing to me though.  I have also within the last week listening to some Bealtles on Tidal HiFi that had some tracks I really enjoyed.  I would also try them not toed in.  Mine sound best that way. Good luck.

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I long ago gave up on the idea of a perfect speaker that makes all music sound great. No such speaker exists. This is why I advocate that people use preamp’s/integrated amplifiers/or AVR receivers that feature tone controls.   When zeroed tone-controls do absolutely no audible harm to the signal, but  can do all sorts of magic when listening to music like you described.  

 

 In addition to tone-controls when listening to the Beatles I find myself often using the mono switch on my integrated amp as well.  I find the mixing on some songs whereby all of the guitar comes from one speaker and all of the vocal from the other to be incredibly irritating.  And certainly not at all lifelike. 

 

Viva la tone controls and mono switch!!!

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I long ago gave up on the idea of a perfect speaker that makes all music sound great. No such speaker exists. This is why I advocate that people use preamp’s/integrated amplifiers/or AVR receivers that feature tone controls.   When zeroed tone-controls do absolutely no audible harm to the signal, but  can do all sorts of magic when listening to music like you described.  
 
 In addition to tone-controls when listening to the Beatles I find myself often using the mono switch on my integrated amp as well.  I find the mixing on some songs whereby all of the guitar comes from one speaker and all of the vocal from the other to be incredibly irritating.  And certainly not at all lifelike. 
 
Viva la tone controls and mono switch!!!

OMG! The BEATles and George Martin were recording pioneers. Had all the BEATles albums on LP. The Capital Records synthetic stereo records even sounded good as that was all we had. HELP was the first album released in actual stereo. It was years after the introduction of CD before these albums were released on CD. I waited patiently. The CDs blew me away. The first four mono releases did sound a little thin, but so much better than the capital releases. BEATles recordings were miles above anybody else’s. The BEATles’ music sounds incredible on my LaScalas with tone controls ruler flat. So much better than the over produced pop fodder of today. It is what it is and it’s the best of mid twentieth century music.


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30 minutes ago, ODS123 said:

 In addition to tone-controls when listening to the Beatles I find myself often using the mono switch on my integrated amp as well.  I find the mixing on some songs whereby all of the guitar comes from one speaker and all of the vocal from the other to be incredibly irritating.  And certainly not at all lifelike. 

 

+10.  What was George Martin thinking/doing? The fact that some parts are on the left and some on the right means they had more than a 1 track tape recorder. So did there mixing desk not have a pan pot? Or what? I use the pan pots on my mixer to bring some of the left over to the right and vice versa when listening to these Beatle's tracks.

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